nihilism is knowledge/power; in most cases, it can only be realized/actualized within capitalist institutions, thus materialism is the means towards idealism, towards the construction of contingent truths, towards a philosophical happiness that grants material happiness.

Responses to this by the commenters abound, but I’ll get to them later. Meanwhile I greeted an important guest that invited himself into my media consumption schedule. I don’t mind because he’s a favorite of mine: the novelist and semiotician, Umberto Eco. He told me to tell lelangir,

“Listen to the fags that contributed to this supposedly non-shitty shitstorm first.”

So I was like, “uh, okay.” Let us then to the relevant responses:

Kaiserpingvin says:

23 March 2009 at 11:42 am

So, in capitalist society nihilism will arise more frequently. This will lead to idealism, since we can scribble what we want on the empty canvas of Everything. Since it has been brought about by knowledge and power, we will be able to realize our ideals, leading to idealism, in it’s own turn leading to material wealth (for… everyone? The nihilists?).

The ‘Empty Canvas of Everything’ Kaiser is talking about refers to my claiming nihilism as a powerful state wherein creation is possible rather than a bleak wasteland of no possibility. I try to build on Kaiser’s point…

ghostlightning says:

23 March 2009 at 8:57 pm

Most people are ‘trapped’ in constructs that they hold to be absolute truths. Nihilism holds none of these ‘truths’ privileged, and allows for power and freedom to create. Deconstructions: Capital/money is not necessarily morally repugnant. We can build a bigger needle within whose eye camels can saunter through – or just genetically engineer nanocamels.

Ideals can be constructed/pastiched/invented – and will not suffer from the hegemony of accepted traditions. Capital, which is coveted by the institutions that foment the accepted traditions is a great leveler.

But I don’t think I can establish a complete causal framework between nihilism and capitalism.

I didn’t think I could, but somebody else sure did:

animekritik says:

23 March 2009 at 11:19 pm

i think that causal connection between capitalism and nihilism is there. simply stated, money buys everything which means it destroys boundaries including boundaries of meanings. For example, last year my wife and I went to Germany and Greece. Let me say that again: last year, I, a simple islander and my thai wife visited GERMANY and GREECE. Our ancestors 100 years ago, not to mention 200 or 500, would have never been able to do so. And what happens? my wife says: oh, I want to go to Egypt next, and so on. The world becomes totally flat, totally accessible. There are no boundaries, and thus we start to realize that all of those amazing “constructs”, cultures are on the same plane. If i can have have anything i want with money, how i can put things and places on pedestals??? I visited Napoleon’s Tomb about 3 years ago. I!! What’s Napoleon now. Nothing. Then nihilism creeps in..

That’s clear enough, and I could totally get behind it after reading the ouvre of Thomas L. Friedman, particularly The World is Flat (2005) [->]. To reduce the points of the novel and consider animekritik’s, it boils down to capital provides access to the exotic and mystic, removing their mythological veneer (for some) — by extension, all the way to nothing (empty and meaningless), as with the artifacts of history that animekritik mentioned. Now lelangir steps in:

lelangir says:

24 March 2009 at 12:48 am

A psychological privilege such as Nihilism can only be enacted/actualized within capitalist institutions (universities) once you’ve accumulated the knowledge necessary to reconstruct your perception of the world. Maybe the pseudo-intelligent believe that there really is such an absolute truth as “equality”, but then why on earth does racism persist to this day?

The relationship between discourses is not hierarchical. A discourse of absolute truths (i.e. rich people are evil) cannot be so easily overturned by a discourse of contingent truths (i.e. rich people are not always evil). It’s amplified here because the discourse of contingent truths is situated in the very substance of the discourse of absolute truths. It’s like a patient in a straight jacket: you think you’re sane, and in your straight jacket, you say “I’m sane! Let me free! I’m sane!” – and the doctors look and say “of course someone in a straight jacket would say they’re sane!”. Thus, a rich person who has the education to say that rich people are not always evil says to a poor person “rich people are not always evil” will surely get some murderous glares from poor people who think that all rich people are evil.

Now we’re getting somewhere. Money and capital, while not the only enabler of education, is very powerful.

Umberto Eco would agree with this, it seems. He wrote (speaking about some functions of literature):

What use is this intangible power we call literature? The obvious reply is the one I have already made, namely, that it is consumed for its own sake and therefore does not have to serve any purpose. But such a disembodied view of the pleasure of literature risks reducing it to the status of jogging or doing crossword puzzles–both of which primarily serve some purpose, the former the health of the body, the latter the expansion of one’s vocabulary. What I intend to discuss is therefore a series of roles that literature plays in bout our individual and our social lives.

Above all, literature keeps language alive as our collective heritage. By definition language goes its own way; no decree from on high, emanating either from politicians or from the academy, can stop its progress and divert it toward situations that they claim are for the best. The Fascists triid to make Italians say mescita instead of bar, coda di gallo  instead of cocktail, rete instead of goal, auto publicca instead of taxi, and our language paid no attention. Then it suggested a lexical monstrosity, an unacceptable archaism like autista instead of chauffeur, and the language accepted it. Maybe because it avoided a sound unknown to Italian. It kept taxi, but gradually, at least in the spoken language, turned this into tassì.

Language goes where it wants to but is sensitive to the suggestions of literature. Without Dante there would have been on unified Italian language. When, in his  De Vulgari Eloquentia (On Vernacular Eloquence), Dante condemns the various Italian dialects and decides to forge a new “illustrious vernacular.”

Twenty years of Fascist talk of “Rome’s fated hills” and “ineluctable destinies,” of “unavoidable events” and “plows tracing furrows in the ground,” have in the end left no trace in contemporary Italian, whereas traces have been left by certain virtuoso experiments of futurist prose, which were unacceptable at the time. And while I often hear people complain about the victory of a middle Italian that has been popularized by television, let us not forget that the appeal to a middle Italian, in its noblest form, came through the plain and perfectly acceptable prose of Manzoni, and later Svevo or Moravia.

By helping to create language, literature creates a sense of identity and community. I spoke initially of Dante, but we might also think of what Greek civilization would have been like without Homer, German identity without Luther’s translation of the Bible, the Russian language without Pushkin, or Indian civilization without its foundation epics.

And literature keeps the individual’s language alive as well. these days many lament the birth of a new “telegraphese,” which is being foisted on us through email and mobil-phone text messages, where one can even say “I love you” with short-message symbols; but let us not forget that the youngsters who send messages in this new form of shorthand are, at least in part, the same young people who crowd those new cathedrals of the book, the multistory bookstores, and who, even when they flick through a book without buying it, come into contact with the cultivated and the elaborate literary styles to which their parents, and certainly their grandparents, had never been exposed.

Although there are more of them compared with the readers of previous generations, these young people clearly are a minority of the six billion inhabitants of this planet; nor am I idealistic enough to believe that literature can offer relief to the vast number of people who lack basic food and medicine. But I would like to make one point: the wretches who roam around aimlessly in gangs and kill people by throwing stones from a highway bridge or setting fire to a child–whoever these people are–turn out this way not because they have been corrupted by computer “new-speak” (they don’t even have access to a computer) but rather because they are excluded from the universe of literature and from those places where, through education and discussion, they might be reached by a glimmer from the world of values that stems from and sends us back again to books.

From on literature, (2002)

Did you get that lelangir? Professor Eco seconds your assertion! He used a lot more words, but he said it pretty so I blockquoted him. This post is less about nihilism, than the utility of media/literature/cultural production, which actually means nothing in absolute terms (but not in contingent terms) anyway, so I guess nihilism stands.

I extend Eco’s point to our preferred medium, anime. I daresay that it’s changing people’s behavior outside of Japan, creating sub-sub-sub-cultures that we don’t wholly know or are even aware of. The distribution of anime internationally is never limited to the university setting, but the intellectualization of it, and most media occurs there. Intellectual activity can be located in the universities,  and it is through capital that this is possible: capital pays for labor, that is supplied by the intellectuals by either creating content for books, journals, and other media or teaching the students who can afford the tuition.

On a personal level, I’ve come to realize that I’m no longer in this center ergo my own thinking and work is far from where the ‘action’ is. It is through weblogs, particularly this one where I get an opportunity to intellectualize and reflect. It bears note that the proponents of Superfani are academics to some degree, and some of its participants are still of university/graduate school age. So I take this in and appreciate my good fortune.

My ability to participate is enabled by the university system of which I am a product of, paid for by the compensation for my parents’ labor in a capitalist system.

So with this ability to participate, knowing fully the ultimate meaninglessness of this effort and caring little for that ultimacy, I look at this captured frame:

…and derive that god is dead [->], at least in this image.

Then I find more of Dr. Chiba Atsuko’s good stuff. Using similar techniques as developed and used by the noted Psychologist Philip Zimbardo, Dr. Chiba explores how evil behavior may be less a dispositional consequence, but rather a situational one.

The basic prociedure in this experiment involved having female high school students believe they were delivering a series of painful electric shocks to other women, under the guise of a believable “cover story.” They would have multiple opportunities to shock each of two other young women whom they saw and heard from behind a one-way mirror. Half of the student volunteers werre randomly assigned to a condition of anonymity, or deindividuation, half to a condition where their identity was made salient, or individuation. The four high school student subjects, in each of the the ten separate deindividuation groups, had their appearance concealed by hoods and loose, oversize lab coats, their names replaced by numbers, one to four. The experimenter treated them as an anonymous group, not as individuals. These procedures were performed allegedly to mask their non-verbal behavior so that others could not detect their reactions. The comparison group, by contrast, was given name tags that helped to make them feel unique, but everything else was the same for them as for those in the deindividuated groups. Both the deindividuated and the comparison subjects were in four-woman groups, and both were asked to repeatedly shock each of two women “victims” over the course of twenty trials.

Masks and oversized lab coats were given these participants to ensure that they would remain anonymous to the 'subjects.'

The other group's members were given nametags to ensure that their individuality is maintained.

The cover story was that the target women were subjects in a study of creativity under stress. The job of our participants was to stress them by administering painful electric shocks while I, as the experimenter in the next room, also behind the mirror, administered the creativity test. Here are some important features:

1. Unlike in the Milgram paradigm, there was no authority directly pressuring them to act aggressively by delivering these painful shocks because I did not interact with them at all during the shock episodes.
2. The students could see me through the observation window along with each of the two women in the alleged creative study. In addition, there was no group conformity pressure exerted on them because they did not interact with one another.
3. Finally, there was not even pressure on them to perform the task in order not to violate the rationale for the study. If one of the four group members delivered a shock, the target woman would act hurt, so there would be sufficient stress induced to impact her creativity. Thus, not shocking would be neither disobedient nor confrontational–one could be merely a passive observer of teammates’ shocking instead of an active perpetrator.

The behavior of interest was the duration of shock administered–how long each student continued to hold down the shcok button after the shock-ready signal appeared. Their decision was not whether to press the shock switch but how quickly to pull the finger off the switch or to keep pressing it down and deliver longer shocks to the victims. Of course, they could choose not to follow the instructions and refuse to even press the shock switch at all (no one ever did that).

One of the subject is considered "bitchy", and the other "nice."

One of the complicit women had been portrayed as very nice, the other as “bitchy”, in their tape recorded interviews. This was done to create divergent attitudes toward them in the minds of their “stress inducers.” Actually, they were both research confederates, trained to act as though they were in pain when a shock lit up and to give a convincing performance that the students in the other room could witness.

Before the experiment began, each of the stuedents in the study was given a sample of the painful shock (of 75 volts) so they knew that it would hurt–but of course, no shock was actually given in the experiment. For each of twenty trials, the women had to decide whether and for how long they would administer this standard level of painful shock to a woman who was seemingly suffering in pain from their actions. Then, after the first target woman left, she was replaced by the second target woman for yet another round of twenty shock trials. Because each member of the four-person experimental and comparison groups was tested in adjacent individual cubicles, their “teammates” could not directly influence their behavior. Nevertheless, they had a sense of being in a group from having been togetther initially while they listened together to the tape recordings. It is important to note that except for the manipulation of anonymity versus identifiability, everything in the study was identical for both groups.

The participants are in separate booths so they have no means to influence each others' behavior.

The results were clear: The women in the deindividuation condition delivered twice as much shock to both victims as did the comparison women who had been randomly assigned to the individuated condition. Moreover, the women who were anonymous shocked both victims equally, the one they had previously rated as pleasant and the other they had rated as unpleasant. It did not matter what they had previously felt about them once they had their finger on the trigger. They also increased shock time for both over the course of the twenty trials, holding their finger down ever longer on the shock switch as their victims twisted and moaned right before them. In contrast, the individuated women discriminated between the likeable and unpleasant targets, shocking the pleasant woman less over time than they did the unpleasant one.

It does appear that anonymity turns people vicious.

That the anonymous women ignored their previous liking or disliking of the two target women when they had the chance to harm them speaks to a dramatic change in their mentality when in this psychological state of deindividuation. The escalation of shock, with repeated opportunities to administer its painful consequences, appears to be an upward-spiraling effect of the emotional arousal that is being experienced. The agitated behavior becomes self-reinforcing, each action stimulating a stronger, less controlled next reaction. Experientially, it comes not from sadistic motives of wanting to harm others but rather from the energizing sense of ones’s domination and control over others at that moment in time.

I’m completely fascinated by the potential deconstruction of truisms: bad people do cruel things, and good people don’t. Certainly having revealed the identities of the deindividuated participants, there’s nothing about them (that we know of) that would indicate ‘evil’ dispositions. The girls from Ikkitousen have reputations for violence, but somehow behave like ‘proper’ high school girls. The experiment is sound enough that there was no authoritarian pressure applied to them so that they would act with cruelty. There’s a context for their behavior; and as the experiment shows, context is decisive.

But I’m nowhere near finding out what is the intrinsic morality of a human being.

The study itself is broken into several parts. In this post, I’ll take not of the following:

1. Case notes regarding the courtship itself.
2. Theoretical framework on power dynamics in late adolescent relationships.
3. Dream Therapy and the use of the DC Mini machine.

My notes will appear throughout the post as italicized paragraphs.

1. Case Notes on the Aihara Kotoko x Irie Naoki courtship

Let us agree that the period of courtship begins anywhere from acquaintance, up until engagement or marriage. Traditionally, it is the male who plays suitor and initiates the activity, with the goal of mutually arriving at a decision to become engaged or to marry. This can put the female into a disadvantage, if she is the one who fancies the male. In the case of Aihara Kotoko, she conducted a 5-year courtship: loosely applied, because the relationship prior to her eventual marriage did not have the traditional trappings of dates and formal ‘suits’, to say nothing of the behavior of the love interest which ranges from studied indifference to outright hostility.

The interest of this study is to observe the mental situation of both individuals, as to place if possible the source of their particular behaviors.

Dr. Chiba goes on to enumerate examples beginning from the initial confession in High School, up to the wedding announcement. Here are a few:

• The proto-incident: Kotoko’s confession. Kotoko confesses her admiration for Naoki by giving him a letter. He flat out refuses it. “I don’t want it.” he says.
• Having missed the entrance exams for Tokyo University, Naoki decides to go with the school’s escalator system. After the graduation ceremony, the F and A classes bump into each other during their farewell dinners. An exchange of heated words soon ensues when Naoki puts Kotoko down in front of everyone triggering her to show Irie-kun’s childhood photo of him dressed as a girl to the others and Irie-kun drags her out into a dark alley. While in a heated argument, Kotoko says she will forget about Irie-kun and he kisses her and after the kiss he sticks his tongue out and says “Serves you right.” and departs.Naoki trolls Kotoko here, viciously. While it is arguable whether or not Naoki has an attraction for Kotoko at this point, he clearly has no reservations playing with Kotoko’s feelings. His subsequent behavior (acting as if the incident never happened) merely added to Kotoko’s anxiety.
• In college, Naoki was set-up in an arranged marriage. He rubbed Chris Robbins in Kotoko’s face (similar to how he rubbed Matsumoto Reiko in her face). In both cases, Naoki underscored how exemplary each specimen female’s attributes were, and how lacking Kotoko was – how far she is from the ideal woman.It is interesting to note however, that Naoki was underscoring general/mainstream ideals, but not necessarily his own. Naoki trolls Kotoko hard, yet again.

Dr. Chiba then draws from the work of Renee V. Galliher, sharon S. Rosotsky, Deborah P. Welsh, and Myra C. Kawagura, “Power and Psychological Well-Being in Late Adolescent Romantic Relationships” (2004)

2. Power Dynamics in Late Adolescent Romantic Relationships, as it Relates to the Subject Case

Traditionally, equity theory has emphasized partners’ perceptions of equity in material and symbolic resources, such as money, goods, services, respect, and status. In romantic relationships, however, love has been identified as a central resource. Recently, some researchers and theorists have begun to argue that assessing interpersonal resources, such as understanding and support, companionship, love, affection, and commitment, provides an important view of relational power. This argument is supported by empirical findings that both men and women describe commitment, attention, and pleasant company among the resources they most value in their romantic relationships.

The relative allocation of these emotional resources has been described as a reflection of the power structure of the relationship. According to the ‘Principle of Least Interest’ romantic partners who are more invested, committed, and dependent on their relationships are less powerful.

One recent investigation, examining relative emotional involvement in young adult romantic relationships, reported that far fewer than half (39%) of dating partners described their relationships as equal in terms of emotional involvement. Females were twice as likely as males to be described as the more involved couple member. One central tenet of equity theory states that individuals who find themselves participating in inequitable relationships will become distressed.

Furthermore, the greater the inequity in the relationship, the greater the expected distress. Those who are over-benefiting from the relationship are expected to experience less overall distress, though they are expected to experience more guilt. Conversely, those who are under-benefiting are expected to experience anger, depression, and frustration. In studies examining the relationship between power and psychological health in marriages, the position of powerlessness in one’s intimate relationship has been related to various negative outcomes Such egalitarian relationships are not, however, necessarily equitable.

According to equity theory, a relationship is equitable if a perceiver (who may or may not be involved in the relationship) believes that each partner is receiving equal gains (outputs) relative to his or her contributions (inputs) to the relationship. Thus, although in everyday usage the terms “egalitarian,” “equal,” “fair,” “just,” “balanced,” and “equitable” can be (and frequently are) used interchangeably to describe any given relationship, there are distinctions among these terms in scientific usage. In the present research, we distinguish between “equity,” a subjectively defined concept having to do with a person’s perceptions of fairness and justice, and “egalitarianism,” an objectively defined concept having to do with equality between the partners in contributions traditionally associated with the male and female roles.

Consequently, it is quite possible that individuals involved in egalitarian (i.e., “equal-partner”) relationships may not perceive their relationship as equitable. Conversely, non-egalitarian relationships may be perceived as eminently equitable by the partners. In short, “egalitarian” does not necessarily imply “equitable.” Because previous research has demonstrated an association between perceived equity and such individual and interpersonal consequences as depression and well-being, dis/satisfaction, and relationship dissolution, it is important to examine why egalitarian relationships are not always perceived as equitable by the individuals involved in such relationships.

To state the obvious, there is a powerful imbalance in terms of effort invested in the courtship, which would continue into the marriage. However, I also assert that the utility and benefit is also imbalanced, but tipped towards Kotoko.

This is probably Dr. Chiba’s most interesting point. People are quick to judge against Naoki, but whatever he gets out of the relationship, is residual and passively gained. He did not ask for it, and only experienced its value much later. Therefore, the whole time, Kotoko’s attentions and affections have a value of close to zero. Kotoko, on the other hand…

Kotoko’s personality has a high propensity for feeling. While this heightens feelings of despair, anguish, and upset, it also allows for extreme highs. A small gesture from Naoki is felt far more strongly. The utility is much higher, therefore the value has more weight. Case in point, a kiss from Naoki is worth far more to Kotoko, than how Naoki would value months’ worth of devotion from Kotoko.

It can be argued that Kotoko, gets a lot more out of the relationship than Naoki does. It just so happens that their appetites for emotional gestures have a high variance relative to each other. Naoki, satiates quicker. Kotoko does too, but the input taken in, while hardly impressive from the norm (romantic practices of late adolescents) is capable of being appreciated at superlative levels.

3. Dream Therapy and the Use of the DC Mini Machine

I still find it hard to depart from Freud, as the founder of dream interpretation. Very well, I will just embrace him. The DC Mini machine will be the sword I use to murder him.

Freud listed the distorting operations that he claimed were applied to repressed wishes in forming the dream as recollected: it is because of these distortions (the so-called ‘dream-work’) that the manifest content of the dream differs so greatly from the latent dream thought reached through analysis — and it is by reversing these distortions that the latent content is approached.

The operations included:

• Condensation — one dream object stands for several associations and ideas; thus “dreams are brief, meagre and laconic in comparison with the range and wealth of the dream-thoughts”.
• Displacement — a dream object’s emotional significance is separated from its real object or content and attached to an entirely different one that does not raise the censor’s suspicions.
• Representation — a thought is translated to visual images.
• Symbolism — a symbol replaces an action, person, or idea.

To these might be added ‘secondary elaboration’ — the outcome of the dreamer’s natural tendency to make some sort of ‘sense’ or ‘story’ out of the various elements of the manifest content as recollected. (Freud, in fact, was wont to stress that it was not merely futile but actually misleading to attempt to ‘explain’ one part of the manifest content with reference to another part as if the manifest dream somehow constituted some unified or coherent conception).

The DC Mini machine does away with these problems, in the sense that the dreamer no longer has to attempt to provide a story or make sense of the subject dream. In fact, no recollection is required, as both aspects of the methodology suffer from distortion, making the data highly unreliable. We can see the dream ‘live’, or at least how it ‘plays’ in the unconscious, without the consciousness interfering with it.

Kotoko’s Fight OnStage – ‘Stage Fright, Go Away’

The dream as a mode of wish-fulfillment, provides an interesting narrative: Kotoko is an alien (part-alien), seeking not only to integrate within society (Naoki’s ‘heart’), but to do so triumphantly. The setting of the action is a beauty pageant, where her qualities are submitted to be explicitly judged. It is noteworthy that her alien-ness is only in part, indicating that she believes that she truly belongs somehow, that she deserves it, that she has the bloodline. Lastly, not that the romance object of the song and the character in the dream is a pilot, indicating a high value for altitude. Kotoko sees her object as a lofty being, flying above others. Note then that during the performance, the romance object is not there to witness it, the event is in conflict with his own pursuit of a destiny of flight. The dream character is actually okay with this, superficially – but I suspect that Kotoko does subject her own desires below that of Naoki, and the behavior of the dream character indicates this.

show →

Nightmare of Naoki – ‘Legend of the OverMan’

Let us remember that Freud considered that the experience of anxiety dreams and nightmares was the result of failures in the dream-work: rather than contradicting the ‘wish-fulfilment’ theory, such phenomena demonstrated how the ego reacted to the awareness of repressed wishes that were too powerful and insufficiently disguised. Such I gather is the constriction that Naoki feels, the way his life seems to be planned out for him:

• Finish at the top of his class
• Enter Tokyo University
• Take over the family business
• Marry Kotoko

Not all of this is directly stated to him, but they are overt nonetheless in the behavior of the household. Naoki wants to be himself, even if he feels that his real self is unworthy of everyone’s love and esteem. He feels that Kotoko’s affections backed by his own mother is a symptom of this straightjacket.

show →

One thing that Dr. Chiba did not comment on, is – assuming that ‘love’ in however primitive its form exists in Naoki even early on in their acquaintance – is manifested by him through the abuse of his power. He knew he was loved, and felt ‘too-much-at-risk’ to figure out his own feelings (but he knew there was something), so he proceeded to derail Kotoko’s efforts. Dr. Chiba didn’t catch it, but I’ll call it: In Naoki’s case, “Trolling is a man’s love.”

Since Dr. Chiba analyzed historical dreams, I don’t see how she performed her intervention. It is interesting for me to speculate if Paprika herself entered the couple’s dream sphere and influenced their behavior consequently in any way. In any case, I look forward to finding Dr. Atsuko’s other cases. You never know whose dreams she’s also delved into.

I have to admit, this one’s a little ridiculous, even for us. Ghostlightning, lelangir, Cuchlann, and I all somehow ended up in a chat a scant few hours ago. Initially, the topic was Kannagi, but, when matters of disparate theory arose, things got a little crazy. The title is apt; in fact, what you’ll see after the break is no less than 11,001 words of our discourse and debate. Is it worth reading? Absolutely.

It’s a good thing the concept of tl;dr doesn’t exist on Super Fanicom.

lelangir: you there?

Ghostlightning: yeah

lelangir: cool, I need help thinking through this post

Ghostlightning: how goes?
okay

lelangir: so from what I’ve seen, Kannagi’s reception is that the plot sucks
but I’m arguing that it doesn
and so I was thinking

Ghostlightning: glad to help because i have a long term project that i need your assistance in a big way
okay

lelangir: what is the relationship between plot and genre?
lemme email you what i have so far

Ghostlightning: fire

lelangir: ok

Ghostlightning: my quick impression: the plot is generic, but it doesn’t make it bad

lelangir: hmmm

Ghostlightning: how many unique plots are there anyway?

lelangir: well kannagi is interesting

Ghostlightning: the disconnect that people feel
i think

lelangir: you could say its plot in and of itself is a double entendre
are we thinking of it as social commentary?
incidental?
or…typical harem crap?

Ghostlightning: is because teh execution in the chemistry is SO GOOD

lelangir: the latter, then there is no plot
the former, the plot is VERY intricate

Ghostlightning: but at the expense of a rushed conclusion, that seems forced

lelangir: and so the harm mush is predicated on its “incidental social commentary”

Ghostlightning: making people say: bad plot

lelangir: hehe but wiat
its not rushed

Ghostlightning: about what you’re saying:

lelangir: because the “lack of plot” was the plot itself

Ghostlightning: but there is a plot:
boy meets girl
girl has big reveal: she’s a goddess
conflict: IS SHE REALLY?

lelangir: I think the fanservice superficial plot is more vehicular to the metaphorical content

Ghostlightning: consequence of conflict: complication of ordinary high school life

lelangir: in the anime, what we see first and foremost is Nagi years ago

Ghostlightning: the metaphorical content does not equal plot

lelangir: clad in traditional clothing as goddess
hmm

Ghostlightning: plot can be ‘bad’ but metaphorical content can be awesome
kannagi’s metaphorical content is awesome imo
plot is ordinary
not a value judgment

lelangir: but the metaphorical content is so well lined up that I dont think it cant be anything but plot

Ghostlightning: hmmm

lelangir: the aspects of Kannagi that are mainstream “broadcasted” are whats incidental

Ghostlightning: let’s distinguish the metaphorical content

lelangir: IMO the point of Kannagi was Nagi’s idolatry
and no one picks this up

Ghostlightning: i would approach it as a “reading”

lelangir: that’s because they’re too caught up in what you define as “plot”
but I think here it’s switched

Ghostlightning: and not as a statement against those who dismiss kannagi
an xist reading of kannagi

lelangir: that’s good, since we know it has to make money

Ghostlightning: the rest of the sphere are STUCK in their formalist reading methodology

lelangir: and it has
industry, etc.

Ghostlightning: plot, character, etc
forms
structure

lelangir: well
its metaphors and “plot” are coextensive

Ghostlightning: so they can argue good plot, bad plot
and you can read it from a framework
of religion/idolatry

lelangir: but while its “plot” seems stupid and “inert” (as in not going anywhere, slice of life), this is precisely what propels its metaphorical content, nagi’s search for idolatry

Ghostlightning: if it were me, i would downplay plot ‘valuation’

lelangir: i dont get it

Ghostlightning: the commentary will appropriate your reading
and then people will use your arguments
to say that kannagi has a good plot lol

lelangir: I still think its metaphorical content is sufficient enough to upset the canon of plot

Ghostlightning: okay
please explain
‘canon of plot’

lelangir: well that “plot” is superficial
like you said, boy meets girl, etc.

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: vs. idolatry, “metaphores”
which constitutes “plot”?
is plot the same as “watching”?

Ghostlightning: okay, you in your reading will re-valuate formal plot elements, vs metaphorical content

lelangir: actually yeah…
plot is watching
hmm
well we can then say that kannagi also has a secondary, subtle plot

Ghostlightning: plot, strictly speaking is a formal element

lelangir: to supplement its “fanservice”

Ghostlightning: the sequencing of the narrative, the conflict and resolution

lelangir: (double entendre ,pun intended)

Ghostlightning: haha

lelangir: yes
so in your definition, my view also works

Ghostlightning: yes
only that i’m more comfortable that the content is distinguished from plot/structure
the plot merely ‘frames’ the content
‘how things happen’
the content is… what the events ‘mean’

lelangir: in very…uh..”non post-modern” situations?

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: i guess cowboybebop, faulkner, etc. complicate that

Ghostlightning: non-postmodern
formalism sucks, imo – only that it is very useful in the study of craft

lelangir: hmm so now I enjoy thinking of Kannagi simply as having two coextensive plots
one just more metaphorical than the other

Ghostlightning: that can work too!
i like it

lelangir: ooooo, the superficiality serves as a framework for its metaphor

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: ok that’s good
solved that
sheesh, it’s sooooo much easier talking it through with someone

Ghostlightning: yes
i have mechafetish irl for this, or rather, he has me

lelangir: my uni actually has a class on anime next semester lol

Ghostlightning: whoa

lelangir: this is going to sound arrogant, but I think the blogosphere would still be wayyy more insightful

Ghostlightning: what’s the content? not history i hope
or genre surveying

lelangir: oh lol

Ghostlightning: yes, but of course it would

lelangir: i was about to say that the class is probably more focused on history

Ghostlightning: yes, an introduction to the medium
you will be smarter than everyone
it will be hell
i remember my good friend, when he took an elective on SF

lelangir: and it’d be boring ’cause it wouldn’t view currently airing shows
so its not as “cultural” or memetic w/e
copyright issues, etc.

Ghostlightning: oh lol
he said to the class: “you cretins, i am erudite! i read more science fiction books than all of you have read books!”

lelangir: uh huh

Ghostlightning: so i anticipate that you will be in a similar spot

lelangir: lol i’m not well-read….or at least as not as I’d like to be
I wish I were more in tune with japanese history

Ghostlightning: in relation to anime

lelangir: so my aniblogging had much more substance
or foundation, etc.

Ghostlightning: you’d know more than anyone in the class
but it still may be worth taking

lelangir: ’cause the general populace is more attuned to viewing anime microscopically

Ghostlightning: because if the teacher is good, it will be very good

lelangir: which is why there’s all this talk about “viewing things deeply”

Ghostlightning: and you’ll be able to influence her

lelangir: whereas I enjoy looking at anime from a bird’s eye view

Ghostlightning: and contribute to education in some way

lelangir: intertextually, vis-a-vis one another and cultures, positions of viewing
I think the prof. had a website
he looked cool
but not a PhD
so i dunno

Ghostlightning: yes, that’s why i’m not so inclined to do so
because you’re around lol
you do it better than me

lelangir: nobody likes reading those posts though lol

Ghostlightning: i can play off your posts, etc. without having to lay foundations

lelangir: oh and the lucky star english dub is soooo interesting
they retain the japanese honorifics

Ghostlightning: o rly? tell me

lelangir: and even phonetics differ

Ghostlightning: ah i think i read a tweet or note of yours

lelangir: i’ve noticed that in recent dubs, they keep the flapped R
and in LS, some keep the flapped R while others anglicize it
crazy

Ghostlightning: whoa

lelangir: and there’s the whole thing about trying to sound like the original VA

Ghostlightning: i wonder how they discussed this

lelangir: yeah
it’s related to how its steeped in otaku culture

Ghostlightning: well, it may be just trying to appeal to the fan of subs

lelangir: I’m sure
yeah
I’d have to read into suzumiya haruhi sales in USA
as LS is definitely its successor (or giant advertisement)

Ghostlightning: your post reads good, so far

lelangir: that was the 2nd thing i needed help on
the relationship between style/genre and plot/progression

Ghostlightning: okay, frame your need

lelangir: it
it’s hard…hmmmm
I’m conceptualizing this as….
a hierarchy between the two, genre and plot
which “contains” the other
which has more prevalence

Ghostlightning: ohhhh
hohoho

lelangir: =p you have answer!

Ghostlightning: people i think choose subjects by genre first

lelangir: definitely

Ghostlightning: plot is secondary

lelangir: in terms of the viewer

Ghostlightning: but plot can ‘ruin’ the experience or ‘elevate’t
it
i think

lelangir: yeah
one sec…diagram time

Ghostlightning: characters and settings can elevate the subject
but plot is more destructive (a badly plotted story)
a good plot, can elevate unlikable characters (but not uninteresting)
i need examples
08th MS Team
boy meets girl
capulets and montagues
war
(subplots are: coming of age, shaking off one’s past – shinigami, hopes in wartime)
the plot(s) is/are ordinary

lelangir: http://i44.tinypic.com/219au7n.jpg
yeah, subplots

Ghostlightning: the setting is awesome, a great romantic sweep

lelangir: but wait that’s just what we said
metaphorical content, subplot, secondary plot, etc.
style
comedy, romance, drama, suspense

Ghostlightning: is metaphorical content in kannagi a subplot?

lelangir: yeah
or so I think

Ghostlightning: or is it a “sub” in terms of depth, but not necessarily subordinate in value
it is ‘beneath the surface’

lelangir: former
only in depth
all kinds of plot being equal

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: epistomologically equal i suppose
or however we phrase it

Ghostlightning: subplots in kannagi: jin (not)
finding himself in art
tsugumi’s trust in jin (relationship)

lelangir: equal in form but not in effect
those are more rhetorical
for fanservice

Ghostlightning: zange’s competition with nagi

lelangir: at least the cliche childhood friend thing
hmm
so this suggests subplots are hierarchical

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: zange/nagi is really just a contribution to nagi’s idolatry
christianity vs. shintoism

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: ok, so that’s just a complex form of story-telling
I still don’t get it….its the 2nd paragraph of the article

Ghostlightning: rather, it’s just the use of forms

lelangir: i was trying to theorize a 2nd form of plot vis-a-vis genre

Ghostlightning: this one: Kannagi isn’t so easily reducible to polarized styles precisely because of its plot. On the one hand, we could say that the plot functions as an adhesive that produces sensibility within the anime, but this perspective pigeonholes us back in the thought that genre is linearly coextensive with plot, which is to say that distinct sections of the progression of the story will be accompanied by correlating genres – comedy, drama, slice of life, and so forth. When we view Kannagi this way, we already set an expectation that
?

lelangir: yeah
that genre is linearly coextensive with plot
or….
and that’s where i went blak
blank

Ghostlightning: explain ‘coextensive’
lelangir: in tandem
1:1

Ghostlightning: i see

lelangir: http://i44.tinypic.com/219au7n.jpg

Ghostlightning: it isn’t i think

lelangir: me neither
so what’s the second form?

Ghostlightning: but it can be, in a contingent way

lelangir: and that’s where I thought the heirarchy of plot/genre was upset

Ghostlightning: particular to specific works

lelangir: ok
yeah

Ghostlightning: yeah

lelangir: so which form does kannagi utilize
I’m just having a hard time articulating this

Ghostlightning: i can imagine

lelangir: the first case is how plot is a glue that connects genre
the second is how everything is already cohesive in the first place
but it’s not visible
it takes something more to realize it

Ghostlightning: connects genre to what?

lelangir: to each other
this is why people are like “emo jin is stupid”
its not because it’s directly related to plot
emo jin isn’t irrelevant at all
poorly directed perhaps
but I construed viewer displease as “i dont get how this has to do with anything”

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: how comedy is disparate to drama
but….are they really disparate at all?

Ghostlightning: they go together well when done expertly
the comedy in kannagi is done expertly imo

lelangir: ok ooooo
so i just had it….

Ghostlightning: the drama – the jury’s still out

lelangir: when things aren’t viewed as disparate, it becomes hierarchical, one becomes the vehicle for the other

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: and plot isn’t the railway anymore
plot isn’t the cohesive force…
it’s like a product now
or something

Ghostlightning: wait

lelangir: yeah that’s not right…

Ghostlightning: plot, formerly is the railway to deliver the laughs, the tears etc?
i can agree with that
but that’s not necessarily subverted
by the metaphorical content
which is ‘srs bsns’
neither necessarily comedic or tragic
dramatic

lelangir: http://i41.tinypic.com/2hzibmu.jpg

Ghostlightning: i don’t get the second example (the line below)

lelangir: that doesnt make sense
what i posted
neither do i
the first line does

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: but i feel like there is a counter example

Ghostlightning: plot is the vehicle yes

lelangir: but i need a way to view genres not as spatially distant
and the only way is to make it hierarchical
not on the same plane
then, something,the glue, doesn’t “connect”

Ghostlightning: the points along the plotline can be comedic or dramatic in themselves, but there will be cases where the characters or other elements produce the emotional effects

lelangir: it just “produces”

Ghostlightning: when points, are ‘twists’
like code geass
twists are funny, ludicrous, etc
whereas kannagi’s reveal

lelangir: hmm

Ghostlightning: that she’s not sure of her divinity
is dramatic only because her character made so much of it
not that dramatic in itself
or, let’s take a big plot twist example:
“LUKE, I AM YOUR FATHER”
is that in itself dramatic?
or is it made so by the reaction:
“NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!”
dramatic = sad
opposite of comedy
never mind the narm/unitntentional comedy of the scene

lelangir: ok
though…im still having a hard time seeing how that contributes to the relationship between genre/plot
or rather
a specific type of rel.

Ghostlightning: use sets
all genres have plots

lelangir: what I parced from vader example was that we cannot separate the event and the reception
the reception “enacts” the event
or at least amplifies it
I think even if Vader said “I am HIS father” directly to the audience in a soliloquy
the audience would be ‘OMFGWTFBBQHAX’

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: would still be*

Ghostlightning: i agree
it’s still dramatic

lelangir: hmm lol lemme ask
do you get what i’m trying to get at?
the two specific kinds of relationships between genre/plot

Ghostlightning: genre and plot relationship

lelangir: in the first, plot is all-encompassing
it contains genre

Ghostlightning: ok

lelangir: it acts as an adhesive
so the 2nd must upset the 1st
the 2nd is a counter theory

Ghostlightning: okay

lelangir: but i cannot articulate in such a way that it makes sense

Ghostlightning: but to say that, would mean…
that genre can make plot irrelevant?
i sense the sense in it… but

lelangir: yes….when there is no plot
hidamari sketch
lucky star

Ghostlightning: ahhh
yes

lelangir: minami ke (1st season)

Ghostlightning: but kannagi has a plot, yes?

lelangir: mmhm…subplots too, as we established

Ghostlightning: two, arguably right?

lelangir: yup

Ghostlightning: so it’s difficult to use it an example to prove the counter theory

lelangir: …how so?

Ghostlightning: sort of like, “it works great with lucky star, it works too with kanagi if you read deep enough”
is this what you’re saying now?

lelangir: the fact that “non-plots” exist shouldn’t refute this binary
because it’s not even in the same paradigm
“non-plot” isn’t in the “plot” paradigm
our “plot” paradigm can be constituted of several theories
“non-plots” should be irrelevant here I think

Ghostlightning: ok, list

lelangir: wait…”it works great with lucky star, it works too with kanagi if you read deep enough”
no…hmm…
no, like i said, it cant “work” because that’s a theoretical paradigm shift
apples and oranges

Ghostlightning: or, the enjoyment of kannagi is not shackled by its plot
limited by
its plot
and subplots

lelangir: right
yes
ah yes
shiet
oh god
then what is the rel. between COMEDY and plot????
(needs….to….read….aristotle….nao)

Ghostlightning: hmmm

lelangir: oh shiiiiet
so….is comedy like microplot?

Ghostlightning: again, the events in the plot can be comedic (situational comedy)

lelangir: like a shitload of 4-komas inserted together?

Ghostlightning: or jokes

lelangir: nearly in a nonsequiter fashion?
wait

Ghostlightning: yeah

lelangir: so
have you seen okawari?

Ghostlightning: micro-plots
sorry no

lelangir: hm ok
but yeah you get it
miniami-ke is microplot
a bunch of unrelated microplots

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: but okawari is macroplot
one plot per episode
thats why everone hates it
vis-a-vis first season

Ghostlightning: event a, b, punchline event

lelangir: yeah
x6 per ep.
[a, b, punchline][a, b, punchline][a, b, punchline][a, b, punchline]
like a train

Ghostlightning: yeah

lelangir: tangent….hmm
so

Ghostlightning: in ls, through the series of microplots, the value is… getting an intimacy with the characters

lelangir: hm
i dont see how micro/macro affects that

Ghostlightning: they are not ‘developed’ rather, they are revealed

lelangir: …
i dont think there’s any char. dev LS
development nor revealment

Ghostlightning: yes, exactly

lelangir: ok

Ghostlightning: reveal is simply this: no sruprises
how exactly tsundere is kagamin

lelangir: what about I am yuor father?
that’s surprise + revealment

Ghostlightning: how MUCH of an otaku is konata

lelangir: yeah precisely
it’s just amplification

Ghostlightning: yes, as opposed to starwars
the linear plot, twists in a new direction
instead of MUST DESTROY VADER, it becomes MUST SAVE VADER, there is good in him

lelangir: ah

Ghostlightning: from the viewer’s standpoint, there is value in both
one can say ls is entirely exposition

lelangir: yeah

Ghostlightning: but somehow, there is value in that

lelangir: “value”

Ghostlightning: because it is entertaining, funny

lelangir: so….going back again lol

Ghostlightning: value = the utility the viewer experiences from the subject

lelangir: mmh
mmhm
plot is the vehicle for genre

Ghostlightning: so there is value in the experience of watching kannagi, if one ignores the plot

lelangir: plot doesnt discriminate between genre
slice of life is an exception

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: but…i’m concerning people that took plot into account and were disappointed
is there a way to say that their disappointment wasn’t “properly directed”?

Ghostlightning: they were looking for plot, or were forced to look at the plot
nagi pun!

lelangir: that kannagi disrupts the notion that plot is a conduit for genre
lol

Ghostlightning: ‘properly directed’

lelangir: lol…that they were wrong
guy a: “dude this plot sucks”
guy b: “no, you’re just looking at it the wrong way”
guy c: “this different perspective is _____”

Ghostlightning: the game here is that it is foolish to immediately dismiss kannagi

lelangir: right

Ghostlightning: due to what you failed to see

lelangir: but we said that already
that there are subplots
ok
bu..ksalfkjasf
hmmmm
right
so this is where I said that its subplot disrupts “plot” itself
subplot disrupts plot as a conduit for genre
subplot disrupts genre
???

Ghostlightning: no
that’s confusing

lelangir: genre is already overgeneralized
….nice pun?

Ghostlightning: you can simply say, that underneath all this, is an essay on religion (idols, commodification)
and the fact that it was entertaining to watch, makes it awesome
because essays on religion aren’t supposed to be entertaining

lelangir: …but….it’s incidental
perhaps
no….
there’s too much evidence to say it’s incidental..they knew what they were doing
ok

Ghostlightning: yes
it’s not incidental

lelangir: ok, so, all metaphor aside, kannagi is awesome
because it’s funny and has naked DFC’s

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: but
its plot sucks
the religion metaphors weren’t properly connected
- or is what we’ve read
but
they were connected
it just wasn’t spoonfed

Ghostlightning: yes, not spoonfed

lelangir: the karoake episode was in fact subplot
it was, in and of itself
it was nagi getting faith
it had to be
it was incidentally or otherwise
because that’s what the metaphor sets up

Ghostlightning: i don’t know what to make of that ep tbqh

lelangir: the metaphor sets it up so everything contributes to the subplot
incidentally or otherwise

Ghostlightning: i know i was entertained
ahhhhhh
yes
wait

lelangir: so it’s really a convenience

Ghostlightning: nagi… wasn’t trying!
zange was forcing it

lelangir: oh shiet bring her into this now lol
hmmmm
from what i remember

Ghostlightning: so nagi, ‘not trying’ by virtue of song choice

lelangir: it was just a double cat fight for jin
ok so that ep was slice of life by nature

Ghostlightning: maybe not not trying, just doing it wrong
yes

but in the context of the idol/god metaphor

lelangir: but….doesn’t everything constitute idolatry?

Ghostlightning: nagi was doing it wrong

lelangir: making friends
she was even saying how she had to look over her friends
because she’s the goddess of the land

Ghostlightning: doing it wrong

lelangir: formed from the land

Ghostlightning: doing it wrong

lelangir: doing what wrong?

Ghostlightning: the whole time

lelangir: idolatry?

Ghostlightning: taking care of the land

lelangir: ….

Ghostlightning: dealing with the impurities
acting like a goddess

lelangir: ….and that’s the part that confused me in general

Ghostlightning: making friends
this is new to me too

lelangir: what’s interesting
is the hospitality metaphor

Ghostlightning: she had an idea of what she’s supposed to do

lelangir: jin saying “stay here!”
“is my house not good enough?”

Ghostlightning: but she’s doing everything wrong

lelangir: ok
she needed the freaking wand as an excorcism tool
since she lacked power
and that somehow stems from her container
the tree
as opposed to zange

Ghostlightning: figure out the rules, steps required for her to do her mission

lelangir: who is a parasite
but….

Ghostlightning: what did she do right?

lelangir: both have no identity
no memory
remember
the shrine is nameless
nameless god
which makes some weird pun

Ghostlightning: right

lelangir: kannagi, nagi
nagi means “calm”

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: but yeah that’s irrelevant

Ghostlightning: the more i think about it, the direction of your article needs to change

lelangir: or just expand

Ghostlightning: you can do it this way:
enjoying kannagi: ur doin it wrng

lelangir: lol

Ghostlightning: then play off on how nagi is getting everything wrong
and THAT is the plot

lelangir: hm….

Ghostlightning: all of you have been fooled

lelangir: eh
i was going for a general disruption of “plot”
“all ur plot belong to me”

Ghostlightning: or THAT is the point

lelangir: “cuz DIS is reel plot”

Ghostlightning: substitute point for plot

lelangir: ?

Ghostlightning: make plot irrelevant

lelangir: hmmmm

Ghostlightning: while everyone is looking at jin’s emo, it’s nagi’s story after all
her ridiculous failure

lelangir: but what’s the relationship!!!!!????

Ghostlightning: plot and genre?

lelangir: which is the product of the other!!!
yesssss

Ghostlightning: neither!

lelangir: that’s precisely what i was saying
people view them as intrinsically separate
connnected by plot

Ghostlightning: not a cause and effect thing necessarily

lelangir: ok
and thus, the 2nd counter theory
lol
doo doood dooooo listen to my song… guruguru mawaru….

Ghostlightning: wait, whose song is that?

lelangir: from school rumble
means “going in circles” lol
or so I’ve read

Ghostlightning: ah yes
school rumble had plots
a bunch of romance arcs
and harima’s manga career

lelangir: yup

Ghostlightning: ok, are you clear re your article now?
or did i just mess it up for you?

lelangir: I still haven’t come to the conclusion i was searching for
a different relation between plot/genre
wait

Ghostlightning: interdependent

lelangir: i think im obfuscating it for you
microgenre
genre within the same series
shifts from comedy to romance to drama

Ghostlightning: rendering genre meaningless

lelangir: whoa….maybe that’s it

Ghostlightning: or calling for lame portmanteaus like dramedy

lelangir: one sec….

Ghostlightning: brb, waifu calls

lelangir: ok
i’ll keep talkin
so it’s like, microgenres are hierarchical
in kannagi, drama takes a backseat to comedy
they cant be viewed horizontally

Pontifus has joined

Ghostlightning: ok

lelangir: ok so the question was
what is the relationship between genre and plot
wait, pontifus, have yuo seen kannagi?

Pontifus: yeah

Ghostlightning: you bastards are keeping me from writing my post (i don’t entirely mind)

lelangir: lol
you’re telling me…
http://i44.tinypic.com/219au7n.jpg

Ghostlightning: this is not going to end well

lelangir: that’s Kannagi, essentially

Pontifus: and, regarding genre and plot, cuchlann would be the one to ask…i don’t really like genre, and i’m trying to make an argument for genre being a superfluous construct (though i haven’t really figured it out yet)

lelangir: yes

Ghostlightning: bwahahahahaha

lelangir: but for all intensive purposes
genre not as discursive
as “style”
“approach”

Ghostlightning: we got to that conclusion too

lelangir: fuck where is that guy

Ghostlightning: after so much wrestling

lelangir: need total superfani jerk circle

Pontifus: what are we calling genre here? comedy?

lelangir: comedy, drama
basically
the distinct elements in kannagi

Pontifus: alright

lelangir: wait up one sec

Pontifus: lol, should i bust out some aristotle?

Ghostlightning: please
save lelangir the trouble

lelangir: lol
go ahead if you want
http://lelangir.dasaku.net/

Pontifus: norton anthology of theory and criticism, GO!

lelangir: the kannagi collection
look at kabitzin’s remarks
he’s like “this sucks, i dont get it, it doesnt make sense”
so why dont the distinct elements make sense?
grrrrr, uguu~

Pontifus: did either of you not like nagi very much?
or am i the only one in the universe?

Ghostlightning: read from a framework of failure, it all makes sense!

lelangir: i liked her
lol
oh jesus…

Ghostlightning: i like her so much more now

lelangir: HELP ME ANSWER MY QUESTION
LISTEN TO MY SONG

Ghostlightning: NAGI, THE ROMANCE OF FAIL

lelangir: fucking UGUU

Pontifus: i didn’t DISlike her, but she didn’t make me fangasm, either
alright, back on topic!

lelangir: right
so
plot is a conduit for intraparadigmatic genre
which is to say
when an anime deploys several genres within the same series
kannagi ie
the plot connects comedy and drama
but
what is the counter theory
theory1: plot is vehicular
theory2: genre isnt really disparate at all….so how does plot function?
i dont know….

Pontifus: northrop frye is suddenly relevant…i need to find something, give me a minute
http://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/dherring/ap/consider/frye/indexfryeov.htm
genres sort of bleed into each other
so you’ve got tragic comedy, romantic comedy, and ironic comedy

Ghostlightning: yeah, and code geass is the best example

Pontifus: but not really comedy “by itself”

Ghostlightning: if one includes anime-specific genre
such as mecha, harem
etc

lelangir: so there’s a distinction here
between style and genre
style is romance
genre is mecha
mecha romance
slice of life romance
mecha comedy
‘slife comedy

Pontifus: well, tragedy and comedy are kind of opposed as per frye, i guess he’d call tragicomedy ironic comedy

Ghostlightning: style… hmmm

lelangir: sooo frye says they’re in the same paradigm
opposed but comparable

Pontifus: right

lelangir: that’s good

Ghostlightning: oooh that frye model got me wet

Pontifus: damn, we really need cuchlann

lelangir: lol

Pontifus: he knows so much more about frye than i do, lol

lelangir: he’s got like over 9000 degrees lol

Pontifus: right
unlimited degree works

lelangir: haha
man
those are two REALLY complementing memes

Pontifus: oh shit, that mythoi circle i linked is kind of wrong

Pontifus: it says comedy, romance, tragedy, irony/satire…but i think the right order is romance, comedy, tragedy, and irony/satire
so comedy and tragedy do overlap

lelangir: how so?
wait yeah

Pontifus: mythos of summer/mythos of autumn

lelangir: they can….
like….monty python or something
well….”tragedy”
i’m not so familiar with grecian tragedy

Ghostlightning: shakespeare even

lelangir: oh shit

Ghostlightning: unless you dismiss comedic elements from let’s say romeo and juliet
as mere ‘relief’

lelangir: but that speaks directly tot he difference between style/genre
“tragedy” can be either totalizing or not

Ghostlightning: combo breakers for teh drama

lelangir: tragedy as in “everyone is sad”
or tragedy as in “everyone dies”
they’re not mutually exclusive

Pontifus: i think putting the mythoi on a circle might be too restrictive of them anyway
oversimplification

Ghostlightning: IN SHAKESPEARE: tragedy-everyone dies, comedy-everyone gets married

lelangir: ok
man….i’m done with this kannagi post lol
for another day….

Pontifus: in any case, when you said “plot connects comedy and drama,” i’d say they’re all connected anyway

lelangir: how so?
comedy and drama aren’t intrinsically connected
it’s a non-sequitor as it is
it needs something “logical” or “syntatical” to make it fit

Pontifus: well, “drama” is a hard term for me to deal with as a genre anyway
i think drama is just a device

Ghostlightning: UNIVERSAL SET: PLOT, inter-connecting sets: style, genre

lelangir: drama as in dorama
drama = emo

Ghostlightning: style:device right?

Pontifus: comedy has drama, tragedy has drama, everything has drama

lelangir: for all intensive purposes here
but in kannagi they’re very distinct
emo doesn’t equal comedy
they dont even self-satirize their emo

Ghostlightning: but to categorize a subject as specifically drama, one must ignore the intentional fallacey

Pontifus: you think so?

Ghostlightning: and go by how it’s marketed

lelangir: yeah
marketed as comedy
with harem undertones

Pontifus: i think that, maybe, if the drama (dorama or emo though it may be) serves comedy, ultimately, then it falls under comedy…it’s just not funny yet, but it promises humor
and if it isn’t ultimately funny, then it’s tragedy

lelangir: …hmm….

Pontifus: funny and/or generally happy

lelangir: i dont get it…
“generally”
but it isn’t monolithic

Ghostlightning: so people who dismiss kannagi, dismiss it within the framework of the market

lelangir: kannagi utilizes different approaches in tandem with the progression of its plot
“the market”

Ghostlightning: they are the consumers – the target market that kannagi “missed”

lelangir: which is different than the author (oh SHI- barthes)

Pontifus: now, i don’t know about the market

lelangir: wait ghostlightning hold on
“[t]his is my first original work. Whenever I thought it was a joke, it became too serious. And whenever I thought it was serious, it became a joke. That’s the kind of manga I’m aiming it to be.”
that upsets it

Ghostlightning: goodbye barthes

Pontifus: nooo, barthes, come back!

lelangir: lol
he is gooooone now
eri has spoken
BUTTTT
its different than the anime!
oh shi-

Ghostlightning: but the thing is, the author HAS LESS POWER

lelangir: vis-a-vis the viewer
yes
the market appropriates it
“the market”
which is just discursive

Ghostlightning: because the means of production is held by someone else

Pontifus: i can’t really agree that anything the author said is relevant here at all, lol
i don’t care what the creative process was, or even about the manga at all

Ghostlightning: the relevant thing here is what the marketers are intending

Pontifus: kannagi the anime is what it is

Ghostlightning: they invested in it
they distributed it

lelangir: ok Karl
Karl-chan

Ghostlightning: but the market has spoken: we dun liek it

Pontifus: they created an authorial consciousness, that the reader/viewer fills

lelangir: Marx-tan
yes

Ghostlightning: marx-tan yes

lelangir: [i'll stop lol]

Pontifus: really? kannagi wasn’t well recieved?

lelangir: yeah it was
dvd sales high
across the sphere too

Pontifus: yeah, i thought it was

Ghostlightning: oh so only teh bloggers are whining

lelangir: http://lelangir.dasaku.net/?p=928
no only a few
it’s not like index

Pontifus: ugh

lelangir: lol

Pontifus: don’t remind me
those six episodes were traumatic

lelangir: i was kinda sad i missed out a red haied loli tsundere with hot pants
but….i got tsugumi
red haired [at times tsundere] with seifafuku

Ghostlightning: i’m possessed by cuchlann and Ghostlightning: the market received it well, implying they are entertained and have been recommending it to firends, high entertainment value = high literary value

lelangir: er, seira….

Ghostlightning: so bloggers, STFU

lelangir: huh?

Pontifus: nonononononono
noooooooooooo

lelangir: since when does entertainment value = literary value

Pontifus: all things have the same value

lelangir: ?

Ghostlightning: cuchlann quotes this michael guy

lelangir: “value”
define…….

Pontifus: literary value

lelangir: idealistically
not politically

Ghostlightning: value = utility that a readery experiences from the subject

lelangir: in essence anime is not deep

Ghostlightning: reader/consumer

lelangir: [oh shi- calling omo]
because its controlled by the industry
completely different histories
the history of literature vs. the history of anime

Pontifus: fuck, i need cuchlann’s aid!

lelangir: totally different

Pontifus: i’m telling him to jump on google

Ghostlightning: pontifus, i get what you’re saying

lelangir: me too
but i’m not up for it
we’re in a very political situation
so disregarding it is like….fljalewrjfoi

Ghostlightning: but the context here is that the readers/bloggers value shit the way they do
heirarchies and all taht

lelangir: yes
the discourse
produced by the industry/market
the literary value paradigm is irrelevant

Ghostlightning: but i’m with you ponti

lelangir: [hence 'anime is not deep']

Pontifus: “the literary value paradigm is irrelevant”

Ghostlightning: nothing can be invalidated

Pontifus: AAAAAGH

lelangir: Pontifus, what “literary value” doesnt seem to take into consideration is discourse
in that discourse produces value

Ghostlightning: no need to scream, you can’t be invalidated LOOOOOL

Pontifus: right

lelangir: value is predicated upon discourse

Pontifus: but here’s the thing
no, wait, scratch that

lelangir: muahauahauahuah
you cannot beeat foucault

Pontifus: yes discourse produces value, but i think one could pretty much talk about anything…i think that latent value is basically value

lelangir: latent value?
oh shit
chuchlann is on!

Pontifus: a thing around which there is no discourse COULD have discourse, and that’s enough

Ghostlightning: hmmm, even latent value is put there by a “prime valuator”

Pontifus: i don’t think it’s “put” there, i think it’s just there

lelangir: no wait nonnonnonononono

Ghostlightning: hence, value is relative to valuer
RELATIVE

lelangir: things have no meaning until it is represented
representation is CONSTITUTIVE of meaning

Ghostlightning: YES

lelangir: there is no “thing” before it is represented
representation MAKES the thing

Ghostlightning: there is NO KNOWLEDGE WITHOUT LANGUAGE

lelangir: yes

Pontifus: yeah, i know
hang on, let me process

lelangir: just to let you know

Ghostlightning: tihs is funner tahn i thuotgh

lelangir: i’m like, in a constant state of jizzing right now
lmfao
“tihs is funner tahn i thuotgh”

Ghostlightning: owen’s post resonates within me

lelangir: the amount of typos makes that hilarious for some reason

Ghostlightning: but that typo is artifice

lelangir: llololowwwwwwww

Pontifus: alright, i’m ready

Ghostlightning: synthetic comedy

lelangir: oh my jizzzzzzzzzz
FUCK

Cuchlann has joined

Pontifus: narrative art doesn’t need discourse to have value, insofar as discourse is communication between art experiencers…in fact, discourse is only possible to a point
it only needs, in my estimation, one person to experience it

Cuchlann: Okay, so what’s happening here?

Pontifus: how to summarize, lol

lelangir: well

Ghostlightning: DISCOURSE can be between the subject and the viewer/reader

lelangir: we’re talking about kannagi
if you’d believe it
discourse is emepheral

Ghostlightning: DESHO?!

Pontifus: everyone, summarize your position!

Cuchlann: Well of course you are. And clearly, this is why the next podcast needs to happen soon.

lelangir: wait…
discourse is between the things
subjects are constituent of it
they create it
and anime is its objec
the discourse ON anime

Pontifus: right, and i think that isn’t necessary for art to have value

Ghostlightning: like right now, i’m having a righteous discussion with ep 06 of SDF macross. Global you are an idiot.

lelangir: you think eh?
but that’s your discourse

Ghostlightning: value is not necessary
value is contingent

lelangir: the discourse in which you are situated
take away your discourse, it takes away your meaning
then, what is value?
an empty signifier

Ghostlightning: value = is the utility of a being experiencing a subject
the utility being gained

lelangir: just because your “value” means to say that discourse is irrelevant…that in itself is irrelevant because it NEEDS discourse to in itself have meaning
er, i didnt mean to come off as offensive..

Pontifus: i’m not saying that ALL discourse is irrelevant, or that discourse is even irrelevant at all, but that the value of art isn’t predicated entirely upon discourse between people, and that i don’t necessarily think there are variant “levels” of value

Ghostlightning: there are levels of value!

lelangir: so art has an intrinstic value….

Pontifus: assuming that the relationship between reader and text is discourse, then, sure, discourse is required
no

lelangir: but wait

Ghostlightning: i value macross over other anime

lelangir: that’s the discourse split
political value vs. philosophical value

Ghostlightning: levels are subjective, but they exist

lelangir: both are right
but irreconciaibly different

Pontifus: art has no intrinsic value, which makes it infinitely valuable

Ghostlightning: OOOOH, PARADOX

Cuchlann: At which point am I meant to enter the conversation? O_o

lelangir: nao

Pontifus: whenever, lol

Ghostlightning: just jump in

lelangir: wait
so
okkkokkkokko

Pontifus: lelangir

lelangir: we cant explain philosophical value with political value…

Pontifus: you’re like a brick wall
i love it

lelangir: -_-

Cuchlann: I have two responses to this conversation: one is in the same spirit, and one is in my usual asshole, reductionist spirit.

Pontifus: seriously, test the fuck out of my views
i don’t get a chance to do this that often

lelangir: oh lol
i thought you meant i was STOOPID lollolololo

Pontifus: no, lol

lelangir: stop being a tsundere Cuchlann

Ghostlightning: uh, Cuchlann maybe we should leave

Ghostlightning: these two are gonna fuck

Cuchlann: Which one’s the uke?

Pontifus: me, i think

lelangir: seme…I R ATTACKAR?

Cuchlann: Now, remind me of which role uke is?

Ghostlightning: oh no, you have seme really written all over you

Pontifus: bottom
fuck why do i know that

Cuchlann: Written in what, I wonder?

lelangir: ore ga sasahara…omae ga OGIUE

Pontifus: haha

Ghostlightning: oh i got it wrong

Pontifus: I’LL SHOW YOU HOW AGGRESSIVE I CAN BE

Ghostlightning: uke is below right
desho?

Pontifus: yeah

lelangir: ok….so going back to value etc.

Ghostlightning: ok, your wish to be challenged is an act of spreading your legs

Cuchlann: Okay, here’s my reductionist answer: I cite Dark Side of the Moon.

lelangir: lmfao
and….

Cuchlann: And what? That’s the anwer. ; )
Okay, yes, I will explain.

lelangir: [dont look at me, im the only guitarist i know that's never heard it before]
[that and the fact that i dont like hendrix]

Pontifus: :O
it’s acceptible though, you’re a jazz guy

lelangir: DUN DUN DUN
still

Cuchlann: I wouldn’t compare Hendrix and Pink Floyd at all, actually.
But anyway.

Ghostlightning: me too

Cuchlann: No one listens to DSotM in a group. At any rate, not stereotypically.

lelangir: i dig radiohead now though
ok computer is beast

Cuchlann: You always hear it alone, when you’re like fifteen.

lelangir: at any rate, i’m listening on loop to the kimi ga nozomu eien OP
lol

Pontifus: lol

Cuchlann: For a whole lot of American teenagers, at any rate, it’s the most meaningful thing they’ve ever heard.
It “speaks to them.” Much as the voices do, I’m sure.

lelangir: lol
like stairway to heaven backwards?

Cuchlann: This is without contact with other fans of Pink Floyd.
Now, the OED tells me that “discourse” has a lot of different meanings.

lelangir: OED?
i think i read that in a book just now

Cuchlann: Oxford English Dictionary.

lelangir: ohh

Ghostlightning: one can discourse with the subject!

lelangir: discourse in the foucauldian sense

Cuchlann: Okay, hold on.

Pontifus: see, this is hard for me because i don’t know focault yet, lol

Cuchlann: That is one sense of the meaning of “discourse.”
Another is the conversation afterwards.

Ghostlightning: lelangir, distinguish focauldian discourse plz

lelangir: oh jezz ok
so
discourse is the bounds of thinkable thought
things outside discourse have no meaning
like anamolous categories
gay
mulatto
they dont fit into the binary

Cuchlann: We need to clarify our terms here, and “discourse,” in my opinion, isn’t useful in describing anything other than conversation.

lelangir: of straight and/or black/white
foucauldian discourse describes, in essence…”sociolinguistics”

Cuchlann: Of course, that assumes the discourse works in terms of a binary, which isn’t necessarily true.

lelangir: in a broad, instituationalized sense
not necessarily true yes
but works for those cases

Pontifus: i am now stepping into cuchlann, who is also mobile suit cuchlann-gundam, and setting him on autopilot

lelangir: ok here’s an example

Cuchlann: I propose that we should use a different word, and not “discourse,” as academically the word is typically used to mean the setting within which people discuss topics.

lelangir: the subject does not produe knowledge

Ghostlightning: binaries are just asses waiting to be raped by deconstruction lol

lelangir: “setting”…
i’ve been inculcated into discourse as like, the godliest device ever

Cuchlann: Or group. As we are busily quibbling over words, I will admit “setting” is not the best choice.

lelangir: ok
well
what is the poit of not using discourse as an analytic tool?

Cuchlann: Yes, I can tell. I think you’re in the place I was several years ago, when you discovered a good critical theory and decided it was the holy of holies. :)

lelangir: what were we talkinga bout again?

Pontifus: in my mind, what you’re calling discourse is just existential existence…it’s the only thing worth considering, imo, so there isn’t even any need to discuss anything “beyond” it
there is no beyond

Ghostlightning: LIEK ME AND DECONSTRUCTION LOL

Cuchlann: Discourse the act of using analytic tools, in my terminology.

lelangir: discourse is the act?

Cuchlann: I’m trying to make sure you know what I’m saying when I say it.
Yes.

Ghostlightning: i realize that i no longer contribute value to this discussion

lelangir: well discourse is also practice
me shooting a basket contributes to the discourse on basketball

Cuchlann: Any act, repeated, is practice.

Ghostlightning: but i will derive value from it by LURKING
LURK MODE ON

lelangir: system of agreements
language

Pontifus: right, but, correct me if i’m wrong, it seems like you’re saying that discourse is the entire range of possible actions, thoughts, etc.

Cuchlann: No, it doesn’t. You shooting a basket and learning a new way to consider the act, then telling others — that contributes to the discourse.

lelangir: discourse neednt be ‘active’
you’re actively participating in it
by subjugating yourself to it

Cuchlann: I’m trying to copy-paste what Pontifus just said, but it won’t let me.

lelangir: the only way to avoid discourse is to scoop your eyes out and slit your ears off
“right, but, correct me if i’m wrong, it seems like you’re saying that discourse is the entire range of possible actions, thoughts, etc.”
“possible”….yes, sort of

Cuchlann: Here’s the first point of my poly-pronged point: if everything is discourse, there’s no point in discussing it, as it’s everything. Thus, it’s nothing.

Pontifus: exactly
existentialism ftw

Cuchlann: It has nothing to contrast it in the chain of meaning.

lelangir: no

Cuchlann: Not even existentialism, just pragmatic defining of critical terms.

lelangir: discourse points out holes in itself

Pontifus: i just like that word

lelangir: discouse expands, contracts

Ghostlightning: existentialism 4tw

lelangir: reconstitutes
no yesssss

Pontifus: sure, but anything outside of it doesn’t exist, right?

Cuchlann: All right, let’s go on to prong number two…

lelangir: discourse theory takes into account silence
booya
it contains in itself its antithesis
without synthesizing

Cuchlann: Do we all agree that a piece of art has no meaning without a viewer?

Ghostlightning: LELANGIR: WHAT IS NOT DISCOURSE?

lelangir: silence
no meaning
i’m being sophist probably

Pontifus: but if silence is the opposite of discourse, and discourse is all that is, all i can concern myself with as a human being is all that is, and therefore silence doesn’t exist

Cuchlann: Silence is a perfectly acceptable answer, and thus part of discourse.

lelangir: i didnt say discourse was all that is
discourse is, paradoxicaly, everything and nothing
take race for instance
you MUST have race

Cuchlann: Which means it’s not very good for conversation.

lelangir: but is is NOTHING
it doesnt exist
O_o

Cuchlann: Actually, it’s not necessary to have race as a construction, it’s just habitual at this point in human history.

lelangir: nationalism too

Ghostlightning: silence in the context of a conversation is not NOT DISCOURSE

Pontifus: race in the sense of different kinds of human beings?

Ghostlightning: right?

lelangir: yes

Pontifus: because, yeah, i don’t think that’s necessary

lelangir: black/ white w/e
…………yeah it is

Pontifus: it’s habitual

lelangir: in this specific political history it is
well discourse is inert
it doesnt move
it is specific
yes

Cuchlann: Answers, though, real quick: does a book have content if no one reads it?

Pontifus: no

Cuchlann: I use “read” in the broad sense.

Pontifus: well, not really

lelangir: oh god…uhhmmm
yes
it needs an author

Pontifus: granted that the author has read it, probably

Cuchlann: Not necessarily.

Pontifus: it doesn’t have meaning “by itself,” no

Ghostlightning: the author who rote it?
read while writing

lelangir: [again to reiterate, i'm jizzing]

Cuchlann: And anyway, the “reading” of the author violates the terms of my question.

lelangir: wait
iin your sentence

Cuchlann: If no one’s read the book, does it have any content?

lelangir: is the author the subject or the object

Cuchlann: The author is outside the scope of my question.
You’re in a room with a book. You’re illiterate.

lelangir: i mean

Pontifus: no, it doesn’t have meaning on its own, says i

lelangir: ok

Cuchlann: You’re unaware of the social mores concerning books.

Pontifus: well, then the book might mean firewood, but we’re talking about the text, i guess, lol

lelangir: but wait
false dichotomy?

Cuchlann: Pontifus has hit on where I’m going, at any rate.

lelangir: shit
owen term
sorry

lelangir: in the absense of one type of meaning is there total lack of meaning?

Cuchlann: Without reading, a book is merely paper and ink.

lelangir: “specific” social norms arent everything

Cuchlann: I’m talking about artistic meaning here, sorry.

lelangir: it could reprsent that the reader is stupid
oh ok
yes
so if you’re illiterate
artistic meaning is impossible
wait
no
not necessarily
not if you’re inculcated into the SOCIAL DISCOURSE that books are inherently beautiful

Cuchlann: Artistic meaning from reading is impossible.
I said outside that.

lelangir: LIKE FRANKENSTEIN’S MONSTER????

Cuchlann: Yes.

lelangir: if i remember….

Cuchlann: This is a philosophical hypothetical.

Pontifus: GOTHIC, OH SHI-

lelangir: lol

Cuchlann: Excellent example, actually.
If the Creature hadn’t learned to read, what would the books he found have meant to him?

Pontifus: it makes me really happy that, for the most part, i can just reach over and grab the pertinent examples off my shelves

lelangir: i have stuart hall et al. sitting here…

Cuchlann: I would have to go to another room, and step over, uh, other books, but yes.

Pontifus: which i hope means i’m doing pretty well as far as collecting, lol

lelangir: oh shit and some mary shelley too!

Cuchlann: I think I have my Aristotle in here right now…

lelangir: poetics is right here
collecting dust

Pontifus: poor poetics

Cuchlann: Yes, in the stack with the Shakespeare essays, the grammar book, and the Norton critical theory text.

lelangir: :(
so yeah…..

Cuchlann: Okay, so in our hypothetical situation, the book is drained of all artistic meaning.

lelangir: insofar as you are illiterate

Cuchlann: Yes, that’s given.

lelangir: incapable of directly producing experiential meaning
but that is not social meaning

Cuchlann: Now, here’s the part that pleases lelangir: this means that discourse is necessary for art to function.

lelangir: /jizz
isn’t art discursive anyway?
me farting is art

Cuchlann: Here’s the part that doesn’t please him: the art itself must necessarily be outside the discourse itself, as it has no meaning.

lelangir: socrates raping a young boy is art

Cuchlann: If done before an audience, yes, both can be true.

lelangir: ah yes!
the audience is abstracted
reduced to a feeling

Ghostlightning: the audience could be the boy itself

lelangir: ” the art itself must necessarily be outside the discourse itself, as it has no meaning.”
i dont get that part

Cuchlann: The audience must necessarily be removed from the art, as art has no practical purpose — and the boy would have practical concerns at that point.

lelangir: how is it necssary?
no wait
it’s not removed
because the discourse created it

Cuchlann: Discourse is about making meaning. Art makes no meaning on its own, and cannot take part in discourse, as discourse is a two-way street.

lelangir: as we said before
representation is constitutive of meaning
there is no meaning outside representation

Pontifus: ok, hang on there

Ghostlightning: activities with practical purposes cannot be read as art? how come?

lelangir: it did not exist prior to representation

Cuchlann: I cite Oscar Wilde.

Pontifus: how analogous is the phenomenological idea of the author consciousness dispossessing the reader to discourse?

Cuchlann: “All art is quite useless.”
I’ll dig up a link…

lelangir: getting a bit marxist here
how does art make no meaning?
what if its social commentary via play?

Cuchlann: Art makes no meaning.
The audience makes meaning.

lelangir: the art of being earnest
it’s good to be earnest

Cuchlann: http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/owilde/bl-owilde-pic-pre.htm

lelangir: yes…
so how does that make art situated outside discourse
does discourse “osmotize” it?

Ghostlightning: i’m familiar with the quote, but tieing a bow-tie for the purpose of looking good at a dinner party can be ‘artful’ or can’t it?

Cuchlann: Discourse observes art. It must be outside to be observed.

lelangir: no
what?

Cuchlann: Yes.

lelangir: observing is irrelevant to position

Cuchlann: No it’s not.

lelangir: how?

Pontifus: insofar as art isn’t practical?

Cuchlann: Let me line my ducks up for a second…

lelangir: if art is outside discourse it has no meaning in that discourse
no intrinsic art meaning
but it has social meaning
like mulattos
they are weird

Cuchlann: The meaning is within the discourse, because it’s not attached to the art.

lelangir: they dont exist in the discourse on blackness

Cuchlann: It’s in the space between.

Pontifus: but if the subject is the art, and the object is the discourse

lelangir: ah

Pontifus: they’re inside the same semiotic construct, sure

lelangir: oh ok isee that

Pontifus: but separate

lelangir: nice
hmmmm

Cuchlann: This is all reader-response and phenomenology, that the art doesn’t have the meaning, the audience does.

Ghostlightning: the audience, rather, creates the meaning you mean

Cuchlann: Or at least, my interpretation of those schools of thought.
Yes.

lelangir: i like chuchlann’s thought
that meaning is attached to the audience

Cuchlann: That’s why it’s possible to have different opinions on art.

lelangir: i’d like to view it as art being vacuum pockets in discourse

Ghostlightning: LELANGIR I’VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU THIS SINCE MY FIRST COMMENTS ON YOUR POSTS AT THAT

lelangir: …though different opinion is discourse in itself

Cuchlann: I don’t think I’d see too much of a problem with the very slight difference in that interpretation.
Yes, it is.

lelangir: but discourse defies quantum physics per se

Cuchlann: @Ghostlightning: haha.

lelangir: you can have multiple discourse in the same geopolitics
@ghostlightning….O_o

Cuchlann: I think that defines, not defies, quantum mechanics.

lelangir: oh yeah lol
oops
Cuchlann: Given that only in quantum mechanics can you have superposition.
:)

Ghostlightning: no, that the readers create the meaning, agreeing amongst themselves

lelangir: yeah…..

Cuchlann: Well now, it’s not that they’re agreeing amongst themselves.

Pontifus: or one reader agreeing with itself

lelangir: that’s so IKnight from last winter

Cuchlann: Go back to Dark Side of the Moon.
Okay, Pontifus got it, basically. Never mind.

Pontifus: i wish i had nexisted last winter

lelangir: no way

Cuchlann: I did, it was like any winter. ^_^

lelangir: from june-december
craziest time ever
or so owen tells me
but anyway
yeah, Cuchlann has convinced me

Pontifus: this is why i wanted him here, lol

lelangir: art’s lack of intrinstic meaning must implicate that discourse is attached to it. blah blah blah

Cuchlann: Art is, ultimately, an aesthetic experience. It can carry with it thoughts and opinions, but they won’t be worth anything if the art doesn’t make the audience feel.

Ghostlightning: the reader agrees with something as to waht a sign means, and communicates that meaning to others, the meaning strengthens, pending agreement from such others

Cuchlann: Hence Wilde’s line: There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all.

lelangir: so…there’s a split between what art really is and what art is perceived to be
“modernism” is discourse
but that has no effect on what the art really is

Cuchlann: Yes.

lelangir: which n ever changes

Cuchlann: Art is basically art, always.

lelangir: yup

Cuchlann: That’s also why you get different readings of classic texts in different eras.

lelangir: yes

Cuchlann: Skim through a history of studies on Hamlet to see it in action.

lelangir: discourse is historically dependnat

Pontifus: now here’s where i jump in and be disagreeable…ghostlightning, i think that, once an agreement is established, there’s no making it stronger or weaker, it just IS

Cuchlann: But the aesthetic experience is not. Or at least, the strength of response. a differing system of mores could alter the particular aesthetic experience.

lelangir: ok well now that cuchlann has upset my notion of what things “are”, there are two routes

Ghostlightning: stronger in teh sense that more people agree, it becomse temporally on top of the heirarchies of meaning

lelangir: the “existential” route…and the social route

Pontifus: these agreements have relative strengths in different people’s artistic experiences, but no “ultimate” strength/weakness value

Ghostlightning: like for example: CODE GEASS = TRAINWRECK

lelangir: yep

Cuchlann: Oh, you youngsters (yes, I realize all our ages).
Because I would say X = trainwreck

Pontifus: geass is a trainwreck = true, geass is awesome = true, period

Cuchlann: But you guys probably don’t know anything about that.

Ghostlightning: it has power over code geass = not trainwreck, at present at least
wow, am i a youngster nao? LOL

lelangir: lol
32
ancient

Ghostlightning: both are true, but in practice, the former is more resonant

Pontifus: now, prevalent opinions, that’s a social thing, and isn’t related to artistic value

lelangir: wait…how’s that in rel. to an argument
isn’t an argument just a statement?

Ghostlightning: i argue even artistic value is a sign agreed upon by a society

Cuchlann: A statement that can be argued with, but yes.

lelangir: what it is directed at seems irrelevant

Ghostlightning: … a society of art theorists

lelangir: vis-a-vis its existential value
which is immutable
but its discourse potency….that’s different

Pontifus: “artistic value” as a term, sure, but not artistic value as applied

Ghostlightning: so art has no intrinsic value, as a meaning, has less power in practice

lelangir: i dont get it

Cuchlann: Actually, the lack of intrinsic meaning gives it more power.

Pontifus: agreed

lelangir: how?

Cuchlann: A crafted chair can be beautifully wrought, but ultimately it is a tool.

Ghostlightning: to use a cruder example, atheism (no theo) has less power than theism (yes theo)

Cuchlann: And as such, eventually even the most sensitive person will view it as a chair, to be sat upon.

lelangir: I guess I’m confused by greg’s use of “power”

Cuchlann: But art, with no use but to be art, to be “beautiful,” can never be written off as anything else.

lelangir: which is a loaded word in foucaultism…
oh wait hold on
art is art insofar as it has a definition
where did that definition come from?

Cuchlann: Ah. Power to affect an audience aesthetically.

Ghostlightning: if i sit on that artful chair, even artfully, am i reducing its artistic value?

Cuchlann: My definition comes from Wilde.

lelangir: oh shi- barthes again…

Cuchlann: I would say you aren’t affecting it, unless you break it.

lelangir: hmmmmmm sosifdkjsosjsojKJ!J!OIU$(*&(U93wt5w94u
so

Cuchlann: You simply occlude it, like standing in front of a painting.

lelangir: we’ve created art such that it has the agency to cast off structural hegemony
sorry i love that terminology
art has become art

Ghostlightning: the viewer, cannot experience the art the painter made, BUT HE CAN EXPERIENCE THE ART OF ME STANDING ARTFULLY IN FRONT OF IT

lelangir: yes

Ghostlightning: “ghostlightning’s shadow over cubism”

lelangir: but what is “art”
art came from where?
we say ‘art is art’
but that’s circular i think….

Cuchlann: Wilde again: We can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it. The only excuse for making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely. All art is quite useless.
Art is a thing to be admired intensely.

lelangir: but….
that doesn’t consider its origin
or is origin pointless

Cuchlann: The origin is unimportant.

lelangir: why?

Cuchlann: The art stands before you. The author does not.

lelangir: no

Cuchlann: What is the origin of Beowulf?

lelangir: not origin as in author
origin as in meaning of the meaning of art

Cuchlann: The meaning is between you and the art.
That isn’t the origin.

Ghostlightning: etymology of art plz

Cuchlann: It’s the product of you consuming the art.

Pontifus: @ghostlightning observe, if you will, a battle of gods

lelangir: but
art has to be predicated upon something
everything is predicated
nothing is ahistoric
hence, from whence did art arrive

Pontifus: right, so
if nothing is ahistoric
“ahistoric” is nothing

lelangir: art cannot just exist all of a sudden

Pontifus: it doesn’t exist

Cuchlann: Art entered English through Anglo-Norman, from Old French.

Pontifus: so how is that important?

Cuchlann: It is created, but the artist effaces the creation with the completed work.

lelangir: wait
I mean
even art in an existential sense

Cuchlann: An orchestra doesn’t reveal its practices to the audience, only the performance.

lelangir: it must have a discursive root

Cuchlann: But it doesn’t matter to the aesthetic experience.

lelangir: correct me if i’m wrong (i probably am) its exisentialism needs discourse
guh so many types
no

Ghostlightning: the aesthetic experience is also up to the viewer/reader

Cuchlann: Art can be considered a product of discourse.

lelangir: but the aesthetic experience can be discursisve

Cuchlann: True.

Pontifus: insofar as discourse is one person agreeing with himself…is, i think, the idea, correct me if i’m wrong, o mighty cuchlann

Ghostlightning: i derive a lot of value watching practices

lelangir: ok

Cuchlann: Well, I’m generally inclined to say discourse requires at least two people, you folks came up with that one.

Ghostlightning: one person agreeing with the self, i find nothing wrong with it
i probably do it a lot

Pontifus: not i, lol

Ghostlightning: NONONO

Pontifus: it’s those focauldians over there

lelangir: lol

Ghostlightning: the discourse with the self
is between one’s memories

lelangir: nice

Ghostlightning: and the idea at hand

lelangir: your habitus
oh shi-
your habits
your consciousness

Ghostlightning: YES YES

Cuchlann: Hm. Okay, not bad, I can see that, I suppose.

lelangir: because
your identity is not stable

Ghostlightning: does the idea at hand, FIT?

lelangir: always morphing
being changed by external forces

Ghostlightning: with my past conceptions, etc?

lelangir: yes

Cuchlann: It works with the phenomenological idea of creating a second consciousness, which is one’s perception of the art.

lelangir: exactly

Ghostlightning: me: IS THIS ART?

lelangir: oh shi-
i dont get that….

Ghostlightning: or: IS MY IDEA OF ART… LIMITED?

lelangir: why does one need a 2nd con. for art?’

Cuchlann: It’s the same thing we said earlier, but recast into different terms.

lelangir: @Ghostlightning: i dont get that either

Cuchlann: Actually, now that I think of it, it’s probably a way to get at what you’re describing.

lelangir: yes ok i see that now

Cuchlann: Discourse within the self.

lelangir: but
that is predicated upon society

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: the self ineedss the othe
THE SELF NEEDS THE OTHER

Ghostlightning: instead of me listening to your words, i say it to myself, in my voice, to see if it ‘fits’ my self-concept
if it does, i probably will agree

lelangir: yes
all that is prediated upon memory
with your contact with society

Ghostlightning: memory yes

lelangir: no experience = no memory
= no discourse

Ghostlightning: THAT IS WHY WE REMEMBER LOVE

lelangir: nothing to discoure with or upon
lmfao

Ghostlightning: lololololol

lelangir: oh god…

Cuchlann: I have no problems with any of those statements, but they don’t alter the fact that art is solely aesthetic.

lelangir: in the existential sense
yeah
i guess

Cuchlann: In the experiential sense.

lelangir: if thats the right term
ok
oh yeah definitely
but then
there are fakers

Cuchlann: The experience is what I’m almost always concerned with, rather than the implications. :)

lelangir: “oh duuuuuude that art meant soooo much to me! [wanna fuck?]‘

Ghostlightning: since we agree, the idea becomes ‘stronger’

lelangir: but then
what i just said isnt even experiential
just machiavallian

Cuchlann: It’s based on experience.

Pontifus: sure, people lie, but i think our entire conversation here takes honesty for granted

Ghostlightning: um mutually exclusive?

lelangir: its just transplanting experience over social goals

Cuchlann: A lie is as based on experience as a truth, or else the liar wouldn’t be able to lie.

lelangir: wait
re@ghostlightning
it gets stronger?
yeah i suppose
that’s where discourse gets it strength
in #s

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: so

Ghostlightning: the grand march of ideas

lelangir: I think there is no finalized definition of art

Ghostlightning: never

lelangir: there are always contesting theories
of equal value

Ghostlightning: hegel: keikaku doori

Pontifus: which almost seems to be the way it has to be, but i haven’t put a lot of thought into that, so don’t ask me to back it up

lelangir: what is significant is each contesting theory’s political relevance

Cuchlann: No, political relevance is completely unimportant.

Ghostlightning: it is significant, yes, but i dunno about ultimate significance

lelangir: how’s it irrelevant?

Cuchlann: It’s an after-affect of the passage of art through consciousness.

Pontifus: it’s sociology

Ghostlightning: yea how?

lelangir: [insofar as we mean political in the same way]
i thought we said all theories were equal
one theory claims art is something beyond theory

Cuchlann: And I’m giving you mine. That’s what this conversation is, yes? ^_^

lelangir: so…we agree to disagree
that’s the end right?
so its FOR FUNNNNN
but yeah…
anyway

Cuchlann: It’s always the end. But didn’t you enjoy yourself?

lelangir: yeah

Ghostlightning: the art of conversation

Cuchlann: See, in my version, that’s the point.

lelangir: that’s actually the best conclusion lol
to enjoy yourself
?

Cuchlann: Aesthetic experience achieved.

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: i still dont like that….
[i'm still pleasuring myself]

Ghostlightning: and with agreement, the feeling is intensified

lelangir: if one theory proclaims art above theory

Cuchlann: Well, on a personal level, let me put it to you this way–

lelangir: that seems contradictory
it needs itself to invalidate itelf

Cuchlann: I didn’t start reading because of a political end (in any sense of the word political). I read habitually because I read once and the aesthetic experience appealed to me more than other pursuits.
And I never claimed art was above theory. In fact, when people claim that, I get angry.

lelangir: uhoh

Ghostlightning: nothing is intrinsically valuable over another thing

lelangir: i dont get it though…

Ghostlightning: people assign values into heirarchies

Cuchlann: Don’t get what?

lelangir: how….art can be nothing
but it needs meaning to be described in such a way
no wait
no it doesnt

Pontifus: thus spake derrida, kinda

lelangir: its nothing regardless
…

Ghostlightning: all this, is nothing, empty and meaningless

Pontifus: art being nothing is what lets it mean anything at all

lelangir: it exists if i dont see it
shiet…

Cuchlann: Who, like Zarathustra, found himself stinking in a cave, what?

lelangir: but then it doesnt exist…

Ghostlightning: its meaning is but a contingency of us meaning-makers

lelangir: so does that theory merely state that things are even if they aren’t?
ungh

Ghostlightning: and we, like the meaning, are ephemeral

Cuchlann: I never said art is nothing.
I said art has no intrinsic meaning. There’s a difference.

Pontifus: or, yeah

Cuchlann: Nothing has an intrinsic meaning.

lelangir: yes

Cuchlann: Trees don’t, or fire, or floods.

Pontifus: it is something that means nothing, inherently

Cuchlann: But they still exist.

lelangir: what i was getting at….hmmm

Ghostlightning: signs exist

lelangir: “existentialism” describes art as meaningless
do we even need existentialism for that MEANING in and of itself to continue to exist?
the meaning of meaningless

Cuchlann: Sartre… bleh.

Ghostlightning: kannagi exists, for the people who derive meaning from it (writer, producer, distributor, consumer, critic)

lelangir: so

Ghostlightning: and everyone will have an opinion

lelangir: but art is different i think
it’s much more abstract
that made little sense

Ghostlightning: and the majority of agreements, will have weight

Cuchlann: Kannagi exists as a bunch of digital files, and possibly some animation cels — or more likely, more digital files.

lelangir: waitwaitwitw go back to sartre
or is that thought wrong?

Cuchlann: The meaning is in the watching, not the existence.

Ghostlightning: each social group/entity will make it mean something

lelangir: that active knowledge is predicated upon existence of a buttress for that knowledge

Ghostlightning: yes, the experience, not the existence

Cuchlann: Oh, my ex just really liked Sartre, so I go “bleh.”

lelangir: oh

Ghostlightning: not experience isn’t limited to watching
selling, creating, discussing

Cuchlann: Yes, the experience. And it isn’t, no.

Ghostlightning: all part of it
i prefer camus to sartre

Cuchlann: But the thing itself isn’t part of any of those, except as a thing. It offers no special, extra value that wouldn’t be achieved with any other show in its place.

Ghostlightning: yes, the thing in itself is meaningless

lelangir: yes
but
that meaningless is meaningful

Pontifus: or, maybe it wouldn’t be achieved, but the important thing, i guess, is that it could be achieved

Ghostlightning: all things, in themselves are empty and meaningless

lelangir: important…

Ghostlightning: AND IT DOESN’T MEAN ANYTHING that they are empty and meaningless
no consequence
no imnpact

lelangir: ok
insofar as we don’t observe them
maybe
its meaningless inasmuch as you make it meaningless, which is sort of impossible sounding

Ghostlightning: as long as when we do observe, we assign meaning, then it has consequence

lelangir: how do you make it meaningless?
you say
“this is meaningless”
but thats the same as “this is meaningful”

Ghostlightning: i cannot make it meaningless

lelangir: meaninglessness is another state of meaning
negative meaning
nevertheless

Ghostlightning: it is an acknowledgment that it has no ‘real’ ;true’ meaning

lelangir: meaning

Ghostlightning: aside from what we make for it
that’s what i mean
not a reduction of meaning to oblivion

lelangir: yeah

Ghostlightning: but an acknowledgment of the lack of ultimacy in the meaning i assign for the sign

Cuchlann: All right, with this new turn, I will retire. I have to get up early tomorrow.

Ghostlightning: thanks for participating!

Cuchlann: Someone save this and post it tomorrow.

Pontifus: i plan on it

lelangir: oh jesus