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	<title>Comments on: Aesthetics II: The Revenge of Aesthetics (this time, it&#8217;s personal)</title>
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	<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/</link>
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		<title>By: We End Up Watching More Anime, Here&#8217;s How &#171; We Remember Love</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/comment-page-1/#comment-5321</link>
		<dc:creator>We End Up Watching More Anime, Here&#8217;s How &#171; We Remember Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 00:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4178#comment-5321</guid>
		<description>[...] some cases, real philosophical! (Kaiserpingvin 2009/04/30) Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Conundrum &#8211; Offering to the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] some cases, real philosophical! (Kaiserpingvin 2009/04/30) Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Conundrum &#8211; Offering to the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kaiserpingvin</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/comment-page-1/#comment-5087</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaiserpingvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 10:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4178#comment-5087</guid>
		<description>lol, I notice a halfway-unfinished sentence. I always manage to shove those in don&#039;t I? 
&lt;blockquote&gt;What saves it from being tautology is, of course, that  &lt;/blockquote&gt;
...goodness is relative to scarcity of ability in this case.

Gods I suck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lol, I notice a halfway-unfinished sentence. I always manage to shove those in don&#8217;t I? </p>
<blockquote><p>What saves it from being tautology is, of course, that  </p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230;goodness is relative to scarcity of ability in this case.</p>
<p>Gods I suck.</p>
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		<title>By: IKnight</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/comment-page-1/#comment-5052</link>
		<dc:creator>IKnight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 17:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4178#comment-5052</guid>
		<description>Apophasis on animekritik&#039;s part there.

At one point Tristram realises that it&#039;s taken him 364 days of writing to cover the first day of his life, so his task is actually growing, not shrinking, as he continues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apophasis on animekritik&#8217;s part there.</p>
<p>At one point Tristram realises that it&#8217;s taken him 364 days of writing to cover the first day of his life, so his task is actually growing, not shrinking, as he continues.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaiserpingvin</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/comment-page-1/#comment-5034</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaiserpingvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 10:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4178#comment-5034</guid>
		<description>AND YET YOU DID IT ANYWAY :D

In that case I suppose the greatest book ever would be The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman, I hear the lengths he goes merely to explain his own birth are quite meticulous and very laborious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AND YET YOU DID IT ANYWAY :D</p>
<p>In that case I suppose the greatest book ever would be The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman, I hear the lengths he goes merely to explain his own birth are quite meticulous and very laborious.</p>
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		<title>By: animekritik</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/comment-page-1/#comment-5033</link>
		<dc:creator>animekritik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 10:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4178#comment-5033</guid>
		<description>I could almost extend the Marx/Kaiserpingvin theory futher and say that the greatness of the novel must be measured by the effort put into by the characters within the novel, so that in your example one would have to weigh the turbulent depths of the Russian 19th century psyche against the crushing pathos of the Missisissippi famer/slave relationship.  But that would be the biggest load of bull ever, so I&#039;ll pass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could almost extend the Marx/Kaiserpingvin theory futher and say that the greatness of the novel must be measured by the effort put into by the characters within the novel, so that in your example one would have to weigh the turbulent depths of the Russian 19th century psyche against the crushing pathos of the Missisissippi famer/slave relationship.  But that would be the biggest load of bull ever, so I&#8217;ll pass.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaiserpingvin</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/comment-page-1/#comment-5032</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaiserpingvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 10:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4178#comment-5032</guid>
		<description>I think we have slightly parallel ideas yeah, in different clothing.

Whether someone has &quot;good&quot; taste - id est, likes things which are good - or &quot;bad&quot; taste, matters little, if at all. Though I am due to my musical ineptitude quite interested in whether my taste is good or bad, I would not care  much either way, &#039;tis mere curiosity. Appreciation is the same regardless of what you enjoy (say, from my &quot;oh Penderecki is rather nifty shit&quot; to a musical theorists&#039; &quot;oh wow I love what he did with the atonal scale here&quot;). 

I would, however, if the musical theorist said that Penderecki was a bad composer, have to say that I had no idea, but he probably was right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we have slightly parallel ideas yeah, in different clothing.</p>
<p>Whether someone has &#8220;good&#8221; taste &#8211; id est, likes things which are good &#8211; or &#8220;bad&#8221; taste, matters little, if at all. Though I am due to my musical ineptitude quite interested in whether my taste is good or bad, I would not care  much either way, &#8217;tis mere curiosity. Appreciation is the same regardless of what you enjoy (say, from my &#8220;oh Penderecki is rather nifty shit&#8221; to a musical theorists&#8217; &#8220;oh wow I love what he did with the atonal scale here&#8221;). </p>
<p>I would, however, if the musical theorist said that Penderecki was a bad composer, have to say that I had no idea, but he probably was right.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaiserpingvin</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/comment-page-1/#comment-5030</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaiserpingvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 09:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4178#comment-5030</guid>
		<description>This, pretty much, though I probably wouldn&#039;t have thrown in Marx, since I know little of him, and what I do know I generally think he is somewhat wrong at (he is far too simplistic in his analysis of history, I think).

It is of course not exactly a very &lt;i&gt;clear&lt;/i&gt; divide. It&#039;d be easy to say that this [&lt;a href=&quot;http://myimmortalrehost.webs.com/chapters122.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;-&gt;&lt;/a&gt;] is something pretty much anyone who can write in English could have done (and quite a few who could not); there are probably not many alive who could pull this [&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.trentu.ca/jjoyce/fw-3.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;-&gt;&lt;/a&gt;] off, if any - but to settle whether Crime and Punishment or Absalom, Absalom! is the better book, might be harder. It certainly is not something as objective as whether modus ponens is correct - it is neither, however, wholly subjective, as you can be shown &lt;i&gt;right&lt;/i&gt; (or wrong).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This, pretty much, though I probably wouldn&#8217;t have thrown in Marx, since I know little of him, and what I do know I generally think he is somewhat wrong at (he is far too simplistic in his analysis of history, I think).</p>
<p>It is of course not exactly a very <i>clear</i> divide. It&#8217;d be easy to say that this [<a href="http://myimmortalrehost.webs.com/chapters122.htm" rel="nofollow">-&gt;</a>] is something pretty much anyone who can write in English could have done (and quite a few who could not); there are probably not many alive who could pull this [<a href="http://www.trentu.ca/jjoyce/fw-3.htm" rel="nofollow">-&gt;</a>] off, if any &#8211; but to settle whether Crime and Punishment or Absalom, Absalom! is the better book, might be harder. It certainly is not something as objective as whether modus ponens is correct &#8211; it is neither, however, wholly subjective, as you can be shown <i>right</i> (or wrong).</p>
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		<title>By: animekritik</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/comment-page-1/#comment-5028</link>
		<dc:creator>animekritik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 03:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4178#comment-5028</guid>
		<description>What Kaiser has proposed  is similar to Marx&#039;s labor theory of value, to wit, that the more effort (including education and training) thrown into a job, the more valuable it is.  And Marx had a ready answer for jp_zer0: what&#039;s important is socially average difficulty or ability, not individual.  So, for example, I might be a genius at doing X, and it might take me very little effort to produce X, but as long as the average social difficulty of producing X is high, my work will be very valuable.  On the other hand, if I&#039;m terrible at a (conventionally agreed) simple task, and it takes me a long time and I had to buy 3 books to learn how to do it properly, it still won&#039;t have a high value, because the measure of value is a social average (in this case I should just give up and try my hand at something else)..

And of course, for Marx labor was the source of goodness.  If for Kaiser aesthetics is the source of goodness, then Marx&#039;s theory of labor value may be neatly mapped onto Kaiser&#039;s theory of aesthetic goodness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Kaiser has proposed  is similar to Marx&#8217;s labor theory of value, to wit, that the more effort (including education and training) thrown into a job, the more valuable it is.  And Marx had a ready answer for jp_zer0: what&#8217;s important is socially average difficulty or ability, not individual.  So, for example, I might be a genius at doing X, and it might take me very little effort to produce X, but as long as the average social difficulty of producing X is high, my work will be very valuable.  On the other hand, if I&#8217;m terrible at a (conventionally agreed) simple task, and it takes me a long time and I had to buy 3 books to learn how to do it properly, it still won&#8217;t have a high value, because the measure of value is a social average (in this case I should just give up and try my hand at something else)..</p>
<p>And of course, for Marx labor was the source of goodness.  If for Kaiser aesthetics is the source of goodness, then Marx&#8217;s theory of labor value may be neatly mapped onto Kaiser&#8217;s theory of aesthetic goodness.</p>
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		<title>By: Pontifus</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/comment-page-1/#comment-5027</link>
		<dc:creator>Pontifus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 00:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4178#comment-5027</guid>
		<description>I sort-of agree with you, I think -- I have some doubt as to how much we overlap, as I word it differently, but I at least agree that the skill of the creator comes in somewhere. For me, it&#039;s before artistic appreciation; I maintain that interpretations and opinions as such have no truth value, but that&#039;s after we take into consideration the quality of the craft itself. If shoddy workmanship (say, bad writing) keeps us from even reaching the art-experience, then that&#039;s that. Granted, what constitutes shoddy workmanship is still subjective, but not as wholly as the subsequent artistic appreciation or whatever we want to call it.

&lt;blockquote&gt;...naturally, we are not all equally good at judging what takes talent or not, since we do not all know equally what is hard to do or not due to differing experience.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think this means that, for example, a fiction writer is &quot;better&quot; at appreciating fiction. She might be better at pointing out shoddy craft, but mostly due to familiarity with the fiction-writing community and its standards; shoddiness is largely relative. It does likely mean that a fiction writer will appreciate different novels than a construction worker or corporate CEO -- not more or less novels, necessarily, just different ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sort-of agree with you, I think &#8212; I have some doubt as to how much we overlap, as I word it differently, but I at least agree that the skill of the creator comes in somewhere. For me, it&#8217;s before artistic appreciation; I maintain that interpretations and opinions as such have no truth value, but that&#8217;s after we take into consideration the quality of the craft itself. If shoddy workmanship (say, bad writing) keeps us from even reaching the art-experience, then that&#8217;s that. Granted, what constitutes shoddy workmanship is still subjective, but not as wholly as the subsequent artistic appreciation or whatever we want to call it.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;naturally, we are not all equally good at judging what takes talent or not, since we do not all know equally what is hard to do or not due to differing experience.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this means that, for example, a fiction writer is &#8220;better&#8221; at appreciating fiction. She might be better at pointing out shoddy craft, but mostly due to familiarity with the fiction-writing community and its standards; shoddiness is largely relative. It does likely mean that a fiction writer will appreciate different novels than a construction worker or corporate CEO &#8212; not more or less novels, necessarily, just different ones.</p>
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		<title>By: jp_zer0</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/30/aesthetics-ii-the-revenge-of-aesthetics-this-time-its-personal/comment-page-1/#comment-5026</link>
		<dc:creator>jp_zer0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 00:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4178#comment-5026</guid>
		<description>but &quot;difficulty&quot; is far from objective. What&#039;s difficult for one might be easy for another. Not sure you provided another instance where we ground our aesthetic judgments on objective facts either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>but &#8220;difficulty&#8221; is far from objective. What&#8217;s difficult for one might be easy for another. Not sure you provided another instance where we ground our aesthetic judgments on objective facts either.</p>
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