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	<title>Comments on: What Umberto Eco is Saying to lelangir, Just Because I Want Him to</title>
	<atom:link href="http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/</link>
	<description>blasting off again</description>
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		<title>By: WHEN EDITORIALS FIGHT BACK: Superfanicom vs. We Remember Love (Anime Blog Tourney Silliness) &#124; We Remember Love</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-8232</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WHEN EDITORIALS FIGHT BACK: Superfanicom vs. We Remember Love (Anime Blog Tourney Silliness) &#124; We Remember Love]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 02:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-8232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] What Umberto Eco is Saying to lelangir, Just Because I Want Him to [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] What Umberto Eco is Saying to lelangir, Just Because I Want Him to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: We Remember Love is my&#8230;opponent? (and other allies) &#171; Super Fanicom BS-X</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-8214</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[We Remember Love is my&#8230;opponent? (and other allies) &#171; Super Fanicom BS-X]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2012 02:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-8214</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] by Ghostlightning, who has contributed to Super Fanicom posts both thoughtfully imaginative and imaginatively thoughtful. GL comments here often, and WRL is one of the few places I comment with any [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Ghostlightning, who has contributed to Super Fanicom posts both thoughtfully imaginative and imaginatively thoughtful. GL comments here often, and WRL is one of the few places I comment with any [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kaiserpingvin</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-984</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kaiserpingvin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 11:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I imagine, that recourse to first principles may well overshadow the actual issue - it turns into a debate about the first principle instead of a statement made past the first principle. As a primarily analytic person, first principles/basic premises and the subdivision of a thought into it&#039;s constituents ought to be the normal procedure, but in practice, one should probably skip them whenever not important, and instead try to expand one&#039;s philosophy - otherwise no one ever gets anywhere. Subsequent debate is more, &quot;how should we handle this thought, despite it stemming from probably quite different foundations, and how do they look at my conclusions&quot;, than &quot;let&#039;s convince him he&#039;s wrong!&quot; 

Or well. That&#039;s how I see it. I do not think convincing people they are wrong from your own viewpoint is very possible, many basic premises are pure axioms. The only way to do it is to show at inconsistencies &lt;i&gt;inside&lt;/i&gt; their system.

Also, the 50,000-years argument: I plead transhumanism! :o]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I imagine, that recourse to first principles may well overshadow the actual issue &#8211; it turns into a debate about the first principle instead of a statement made past the first principle. As a primarily analytic person, first principles/basic premises and the subdivision of a thought into it&#8217;s constituents ought to be the normal procedure, but in practice, one should probably skip them whenever not important, and instead try to expand one&#8217;s philosophy &#8211; otherwise no one ever gets anywhere. Subsequent debate is more, &#8220;how should we handle this thought, despite it stemming from probably quite different foundations, and how do they look at my conclusions&#8221;, than &#8220;let&#8217;s convince him he&#8217;s wrong!&#8221; </p>
<p>Or well. That&#8217;s how I see it. I do not think convincing people they are wrong from your own viewpoint is very possible, many basic premises are pure axioms. The only way to do it is to show at inconsistencies <i>inside</i> their system.</p>
<p>Also, the 50,000-years argument: I plead transhumanism! :o</p>
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		<title>By: moritheil</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-983</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[moritheil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 20:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had some thoughts on this when I came across the original comment chain, but emboldened by jpmeyer&#039;s critique, I&#039;ll post this here.  There is a bewildering lack of first principles in this discussion, which I think jpmeyer only barely touched on above.  That is, not only is it not clear what statement A stems from, it is not clear what is and is not supported because it is not clear which assumptions are and are not accepted.  In short, it&#039;s not clear what &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt; stems from.

An example may be warranted.  Supposing a theist world, for example, we may accept nihilism as itself an illusion, but one that arises from the problem of individual perception of the universe.  The problems of nihilism, then, are strictly matters of perception rather than underlying substance.  But if there is no creator, no external agency to imbue overlying purpose, then we are left with individual determination of purpose.  Nihilism is then an essentially and fundamentally valid view that is much harder to rebut: you may construct complicated structures of purpose, reasoning, and affirmation, but I may always respond with the argument that in 50,000 years, all you were and did will be dust, forgotten, insignificant, and this is not even the batting of an eyelash on the cosmic scale.

Solipsism, of course, would be similarly stark, but work on entirely different mechanics.  The point is that there is never any agreement on these first principles, and so we are simply hand-waving.  As a postmodernist, I recognize the legitimacy of interpretation and subjective experience, so my assertion of a need for discussion of first principles is not dogmatic but rather practical in nature.  What are we taking as given and what are we not taking as given?

This entire conversation is a collision between the hermeneutics of faith and the hermeneutics of suspicion: ghostlightning reaches a point with the former, and then deliberately undercuts himself with the latter.

&quot;After all the philosophical hair-splitting I just did here may perhaps be acquired only as a skill in a capitalist enabled educational structure. Hope may be the correct spin to apply to working with these ‘hopeless’ kids in the short term (they can split hairs when they’ve gone to college later when they’re full of hope).&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had some thoughts on this when I came across the original comment chain, but emboldened by jpmeyer&#8217;s critique, I&#8217;ll post this here.  There is a bewildering lack of first principles in this discussion, which I think jpmeyer only barely touched on above.  That is, not only is it not clear what statement A stems from, it is not clear what is and is not supported because it is not clear which assumptions are and are not accepted.  In short, it&#8217;s not clear what <i>anything</i> stems from.</p>
<p>An example may be warranted.  Supposing a theist world, for example, we may accept nihilism as itself an illusion, but one that arises from the problem of individual perception of the universe.  The problems of nihilism, then, are strictly matters of perception rather than underlying substance.  But if there is no creator, no external agency to imbue overlying purpose, then we are left with individual determination of purpose.  Nihilism is then an essentially and fundamentally valid view that is much harder to rebut: you may construct complicated structures of purpose, reasoning, and affirmation, but I may always respond with the argument that in 50,000 years, all you were and did will be dust, forgotten, insignificant, and this is not even the batting of an eyelash on the cosmic scale.</p>
<p>Solipsism, of course, would be similarly stark, but work on entirely different mechanics.  The point is that there is never any agreement on these first principles, and so we are simply hand-waving.  As a postmodernist, I recognize the legitimacy of interpretation and subjective experience, so my assertion of a need for discussion of first principles is not dogmatic but rather practical in nature.  What are we taking as given and what are we not taking as given?</p>
<p>This entire conversation is a collision between the hermeneutics of faith and the hermeneutics of suspicion: ghostlightning reaches a point with the former, and then deliberately undercuts himself with the latter.</p>
<p>&#8220;After all the philosophical hair-splitting I just did here may perhaps be acquired only as a skill in a capitalist enabled educational structure. Hope may be the correct spin to apply to working with these ‘hopeless’ kids in the short term (they can split hairs when they’ve gone to college later when they’re full of hope).&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Cuchlann</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-982</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cuchlann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 22:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-982</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I actually looked at a few of Eco&#039;s essay collections last month, in an effort to find a few in-roads to teaching literature.  I didn&#039;t buy anything, choosing libraries instead.  Right now I&#039;m mulling over Booth&#039;s How to Read and Why, which is simultaneously great and insulting -- so, it&#039;s Booth.  : D

Another cause of leveling is media consumption, by the way.  It&#039;s had a marked and demonstrable effect on dialects of varied languages; people all around a country hear one particular dialect and, even if it&#039;s only slightly, adopt it.  Mass media has done even more, of course -- without extensive travel, hard-to-find translations, and so on, it would have been once very difficult for a budding intellectual to be exposed to other cultures, but it&#039;s much easier now.  

Also, while you&#039;re basically right about universities and their central role to the kind of thought you&#039;re discussing, also remember they&#039;re meant to educate more than the next generation of professors.  So in having passed through college and keeping up the habits and contacts of such a life, you&#039;re in that sphere as well, even though you aren&#039;t directly attached to a university.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually looked at a few of Eco&#8217;s essay collections last month, in an effort to find a few in-roads to teaching literature.  I didn&#8217;t buy anything, choosing libraries instead.  Right now I&#8217;m mulling over Booth&#8217;s How to Read and Why, which is simultaneously great and insulting &#8212; so, it&#8217;s Booth.  : D</p>
<p>Another cause of leveling is media consumption, by the way.  It&#8217;s had a marked and demonstrable effect on dialects of varied languages; people all around a country hear one particular dialect and, even if it&#8217;s only slightly, adopt it.  Mass media has done even more, of course &#8212; without extensive travel, hard-to-find translations, and so on, it would have been once very difficult for a budding intellectual to be exposed to other cultures, but it&#8217;s much easier now.  </p>
<p>Also, while you&#8217;re basically right about universities and their central role to the kind of thought you&#8217;re discussing, also remember they&#8217;re meant to educate more than the next generation of professors.  So in having passed through college and keeping up the habits and contacts of such a life, you&#8217;re in that sphere as well, even though you aren&#8217;t directly attached to a university.</p>
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		<title>By: animekritik</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-981</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[animekritik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-981</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In terms of reading, French and German philosophers are both hard but for completely different reasons.  1) The French love style trope allusion illusion, so they&#039;ll say in 100 pages what could take them 5.  2) The Germans don&#039;t want to be misunderstood, so it takes them 95 pages to flesh out and delimit and categorize what in essence is a 5 page text.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In terms of reading, French and German philosophers are both hard but for completely different reasons.  1) The French love style trope allusion illusion, so they&#8217;ll say in 100 pages what could take them 5.  2) The Germans don&#8217;t want to be misunderstood, so it takes them 95 pages to flesh out and delimit and categorize what in essence is a 5 page text.</p>
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		<title>By: ghostlightning</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-980</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ghostlightning]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All philosophy is literature - yes. I merely acknowledge my own preferences and perhaps my limitations in studying the source texts of the notable philosophers - even those inclined to produce literary forms beyond the essay such as Sartre. &lt;i&gt;Being and Nothingness&lt;/i&gt; destroyed me and discouraged me from reading anything beyond &lt;i&gt;Existentialism is a Humanism&lt;/i&gt;, for example.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All philosophy is literature &#8211; yes. I merely acknowledge my own preferences and perhaps my limitations in studying the source texts of the notable philosophers &#8211; even those inclined to produce literary forms beyond the essay such as Sartre. <i>Being and Nothingness</i> destroyed me and discouraged me from reading anything beyond <i>Existentialism is a Humanism</i>, for example.</p>
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		<title>By: jp_zer0</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-979</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jp_zer0]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 03:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem with highly stylized and anecdotal philosophy (It is my contention that all philosophy is also literature) is that it doesn&#039;t make a very attackable text. Harder to dissect, analyze and refute. It&#039;s also very heavy for something that should be dynamic, economical and liquid.

To me, philosophy can help meat up a novel like Dostoevsky did wonderfully. Or it can come from a long and established philosophical career, where it&#039;s certain that your ideas will still be there for a while and that your stylized text will not go to waste.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with highly stylized and anecdotal philosophy (It is my contention that all philosophy is also literature) is that it doesn&#8217;t make a very attackable text. Harder to dissect, analyze and refute. It&#8217;s also very heavy for something that should be dynamic, economical and liquid.</p>
<p>To me, philosophy can help meat up a novel like Dostoevsky did wonderfully. Or it can come from a long and established philosophical career, where it&#8217;s certain that your ideas will still be there for a while and that your stylized text will not go to waste.</p>
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		<title>By: ghostlightning</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-978</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ghostlightning]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-978</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Perhaps in an anime context “god is truly dead” in the Nietszchean sense… after all, evidence for a second season of Haruhi from Kyoto Animation grows less and less compelling; yet most people refuse to acknowledge this death out of inner fear and angst. Yet if we overcome this restraint, let go of the dying remnants of Haruuhism opens our eyes to the myriad other possibilities surrounding us…&lt;/blockquote&gt;

LOL. delicious.

Regretting philosophy? I only minored in it, majoring in literature. I must say I share some of my own professors&#039; views that the best philosophy is expressed in literary forms other than oratory and essays (the novel comes to mind). i like philosophical content but I find it ridiculously hard to read &#039;career&#039; philosophers. Perhaps this is why I like Camus best too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Perhaps in an anime context “god is truly dead” in the Nietszchean sense… after all, evidence for a second season of Haruhi from Kyoto Animation grows less and less compelling; yet most people refuse to acknowledge this death out of inner fear and angst. Yet if we overcome this restraint, let go of the dying remnants of Haruuhism opens our eyes to the myriad other possibilities surrounding us…</p></blockquote>
<p>LOL. delicious.</p>
<p>Regretting philosophy? I only minored in it, majoring in literature. I must say I share some of my own professors&#8217; views that the best philosophy is expressed in literary forms other than oratory and essays (the novel comes to mind). i like philosophical content but I find it ridiculously hard to read &#8216;career&#8217; philosophers. Perhaps this is why I like Camus best too.</p>
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		<title>By: vendredi</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-977</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vendredi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 06:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-977</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That last bit made me laugh, then think. 
Perhaps in an anime context &quot;god is truly dead&quot; in the Nietszchean sense... after all, evidence for a second season of Haruhi from Kyoto Animation grows less and less compelling; yet most people refuse to acknowledge this death out of inner fear and angst. Yet if we overcome this restraint, let go of the dying remnants of Haruuhism opens our eyes to the myriad other possibilities surrounding us...
Damnit, I really should never have done a second major in philosophy. It&#039;s infecting everything. But you do raise an interesting point about &quot;where the action is&quot; in terms of intellectual discussion. I&#039;m fairly sure this can go for many different types of pop-cultural topics as well. I know for certain that some of my professors have started &quot;class blogs&quot; rather than use typical class websites in an effort to keep students engaged. Generally though academia still operates at a fairly glacial pace...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That last bit made me laugh, then think.<br />
Perhaps in an anime context &#8220;god is truly dead&#8221; in the Nietszchean sense&#8230; after all, evidence for a second season of Haruhi from Kyoto Animation grows less and less compelling; yet most people refuse to acknowledge this death out of inner fear and angst. Yet if we overcome this restraint, let go of the dying remnants of Haruuhism opens our eyes to the myriad other possibilities surrounding us&#8230;<br />
Damnit, I really should never have done a second major in philosophy. It&#8217;s infecting everything. But you do raise an interesting point about &#8220;where the action is&#8221; in terms of intellectual discussion. I&#8217;m fairly sure this can go for many different types of pop-cultural topics as well. I know for certain that some of my professors have started &#8220;class blogs&#8221; rather than use typical class websites in an effort to keep students engaged. Generally though academia still operates at a fairly glacial pace&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: animekritik</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-976</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[animekritik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 00:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-976</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On that note, I tell people, especially young people, to avoid reading stuff like Nietzsche if they can.  (Hell, for most people out there it&#039;d be better for them if they never read that stuff).  Lelangir, the use of the word &quot;nihilism&quot; for those kids is appropriate, in fact, I think historically &quot;nihilists&quot; are nothing more and nothing less than the &quot;chronically disaffected&quot;.  It&#039;s only philosophical types that have refined that and come up with the Nihilism with a capital N that ghostlightning and I like to throw about so much.  Those kids sound like they could use some hope.  And maybe then years and years down the road, if they&#039;re so inclined, they can actually start learning about the vast void that surrounds them and that would have swallowed them whole if they had but stared at it for one second!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On that note, I tell people, especially young people, to avoid reading stuff like Nietzsche if they can.  (Hell, for most people out there it&#8217;d be better for them if they never read that stuff).  Lelangir, the use of the word &#8220;nihilism&#8221; for those kids is appropriate, in fact, I think historically &#8220;nihilists&#8221; are nothing more and nothing less than the &#8220;chronically disaffected&#8221;.  It&#8217;s only philosophical types that have refined that and come up with the Nihilism with a capital N that ghostlightning and I like to throw about so much.  Those kids sound like they could use some hope.  And maybe then years and years down the road, if they&#8217;re so inclined, they can actually start learning about the vast void that surrounds them and that would have swallowed them whole if they had but stared at it for one second!!</p>
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		<title>By: animekritik</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/04/26/what-umberto-eco-is-saying-to-lelangir-just-because-i-want-him-to/#comment-975</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[animekritik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 00:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=4171#comment-975</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, this is the thing: if the historical situation were hazier and so some scholars supported the Spanish invasion theory and others opposed it, gradually most people in South America would consider the pro-invasion theory racist (except maybe upper class Peruvians that wanted to be associated with Europe, just like the Brahmins in my example).  The Inca case is too much in the light of history to suffer revision, but you bringing it up is awesome: it rankles many liberally minded people that under a 1000 ruthless Spanish soldiers could wipe out the Inca and the Aztec Empire.  If it had happened 2-3,000 years earlier, they&#039;d be denying it!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this is the thing: if the historical situation were hazier and so some scholars supported the Spanish invasion theory and others opposed it, gradually most people in South America would consider the pro-invasion theory racist (except maybe upper class Peruvians that wanted to be associated with Europe, just like the Brahmins in my example).  The Inca case is too much in the light of history to suffer revision, but you bringing it up is awesome: it rankles many liberally minded people that under a 1000 ruthless Spanish soldiers could wipe out the Inca and the Aztec Empire.  If it had happened 2-3,000 years earlier, they&#8217;d be denying it!!</p>
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