Comments on: Clannadstrophe

By: anitations - collected discourse on Clannad AS end

anitations - collected discourse on Clannad AS end — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 00:32:29 +0000

[...] Pontifus writes his piece on the end, replying to Nazarielle’s post: I’d agree [with Nazarielle], to [...]

By: The closing bracket « Pontifus

The closing bracket « Pontifus — Sat, 21 Mar 2009 04:00:32 +0000

[...] realized how important endings are to me, thanks to Clannad. Regarding certain thoughts of mine, lelangir said: …saying Clannad isn’t tragic does neglect those very instances of tragedy. Also – what if [...]

By: Pontifus

Pontifus — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 03:20:07 +0000

When I say that Clannad “is,” in the end, comedic, I mean that, in my estimation, its textual cues are likely to result in a conceptual text that is in Aristotelian/Fryean terms comedic, with its good end and all, not that it’s inherently comedic independent of readership. And I’m separating “chronological text-events” and “narrative timeline” into two distinct processes; the latter isn’t too much of a consideration for me here, which is not by any means to say that it isn’t important. What I think I’m trying to say is that I agree with you fundamentally; saying that Clannad is comedic in terms of the end result of chronological text-events is only the beginning of a more robust investigation that must at some point consider narrative timeline, but I don’t really feel compelled to pursue that, as I’m pretty satisfied with the way you’ve done so already :P

By: Cuchlann

Cuchlann — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:30:30 +0000

Adding in lelangir’s thoughts on the past, I think it *could* be considered a traditional deus ex machina, re-imagined — of course, I’m just going on hearsay.

Also, yes, Kanon was so much better than Air.

By: lelangir

lelangir — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 15:45:27 +0000

Actually, me not being a cognitive psychologist, events as they happen probably can significantly alter “the past”. Since, hypothetically, the mind only imbues a certain amount of “in the pastness” to memories, what holds events in the past is a really thin glue. But the emotions attached to these contextual memories are even slippier perhaps – can we retreat back into memory and say “this is exactly how I felt 10 years ago?” I don’t know…

But given that, I’m still not sure if we can separate the viewer’s feelings from the all that happens in-text since, as would be the DoTA answer, the viewer gives the text meaning. If “[tragedy is] replaced for the characters involved by nicer things,” that still must include all of the in-text chronology. It’s not that things are “replaced”, per se, just that the chronological text-events regress while still progressing constantly in a narrative timeline. I don’t know if I’m making any sense, though I’m still not 100% I get the argument in general (屮゜Д゜)屮

at any rate, nice topic.

By: Final Thoughts on Clannad ~After Story~ « Grand Punk Railroad

Final Thoughts on Clannad ~After Story~ « Grand Punk Railroad — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:06:01 +0000

[...] I had with Clannad ~After Story~ was the ending. I believe (and I also think the general consensus is so) that simply performing a reset just undermines all of the experiences between the main cast and [...]

By: Pontifus

Pontifus — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:02:04 +0000

@lelangir

You bring up some concerns I have as well. As Cuchlann mentions, I’m pretty sure that the tragedy/comedy/etc. labels as per Frye are applied after the whole of the narrative is consumed; they have a lot to do with the ending, and Clannad’s ending is decidedly uber-happy. I am not, however, suggesting that Clannad’s end overwrites or annuls its tragic elements; it had so many that, despite knowing the game’s good end, I had half come to suspect that KyoAni would change things up and go wholly in the tragic direction.

So, as per your post on THAT, I’m using “an Aristotelian notion of tragedy” here. This is, as I think you’ve demonstrated well, not the only serviceable notion of tragedy. But I think we can still make use of it without implying that the emotions we felt during tragic moments are retrospectively null somehow. When I say that Clannad’s tragedy is erased, I don’t mean that it’s removed from the reader’s conception of the text, but simply that, in the in-text fictional timeline, it’s replaced for the characters involved by nicer things.

@Nazarielle

So the writers of Clannad felt that they could throw caution to the wind and kill off anyone and everyone because none of it would be real in the end anyway? That’s an interesting thought. If that theory is correct, I’d wonder if the creators doubt the readers’ ability to process tragedy, and, further, whether they’re justified in their doubts.

@Ubiquitial

I didn’t get the impression that Tomoya died at the end of 21, but I like that angle, so I’ll have to keep it in mind. Or, well, my liking of that angle is tempered a bit by my desire to see Tomoya live on after the death of his wife and child because that’s what people have to do, but still. It’s interesting that Clannad’s tragic elements were numerous and significant enough to enable a reading like that.

For my part, I still think Kanon beats Air and Clannad in terms of KyoAni’s adaptations. The end is still a little deus ex what-the-fuckina, but at least there are more tangible consequences, and it’s not ambiguous. Of course that’s just personal preference though.

@vendredi

You’re right about there being abnormal characters throughout. I didn’t mean to give them the shaft; I just had Tomoya and Ushio on the brain when I wrote this. Those situations add to the show’s romanticism — and now that I think about it, some of them serve as pretty satisfying little sub-tragedies when taken by themselves. Everyone else has to endure life as-is; why not Tomoya? Now I’m even more dissatisfied.

As to the setup being “too convenient” for tragedy…you know, I never thought of it like that. I just figure the non-tragic end feels like a cop-out after a sufficiently tragic buildup. Maybe Key and KyoAni are doing something interesting with tragedy-vs.-comedy that I just don’t get.

@Cuchlann

Yeah, what you said. Your mention of Old Comedy makes me think of Greek tragedians who became sort of infamous for their use of deus ex machina to save characters at the last minute; I think Euripides was one. But the ending of Clannad is a little more extreme than one character being plucked from the jaws of death at the last moment, what with the time travel and all, so I’m not sure there’s much of a parallel there.

By: THAT Animeblog - RESET END OH SHI-

THAT Animeblog - RESET END OH SHI- — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 08:00:28 +0000

[...] Pontifus had written: I’m having a hard time convincing myself that Clannad is tragic at all, [...]

By: Ubiquitial

Ubiquitial — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 01:12:44 +0000

Well, I disagree on part. Comedies don’t nessecarily have to end in a comedic fashion. Tragedies do, but comedies have more significance put on the process.

And CLANNAD was very tragic until the end. Thus, I like to think that the entire ‘good’ end was created in the dying Tomoya’s mind as he loses his sanity and escapes into delusions.

About Fyre, I just thought that you, as you read him quite a bit. that you had some influence over him. But ok.

By: Cuchlann

Cuchlann — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:59:38 +0000

I haven’t seen the show, obviously, but I can say that “tragedy” and “comedy” are defined by their endings, and not the stuff that leads up to said endings. There are some pretty awful things in the beginnings of some comedies, for example, like the threat of *beheading* if the daughters in Midsummer Night’s Dream don’t marry the right people. In fact, as comedies are also, in part, defined as stories that begin in bad situations and better themselves, the terrible, sad moments you’re describing in Clannad sound like more support for such a reading — and I’m guessing from the picture it ends with a child? Classic Old Comedy, with procreation and/or rebirth as the integration ending.

Also, Ubiquital, people did read Frye before I did, I promise. Pontifus owned that book before ever he met me.