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	<title>Comments on: The faces of tigers and dragons</title>
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		<title>By: IKnight</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/03/02/the-faces-of-tigers-and-dragons/comment-page-1/#comment-3106</link>
		<dc:creator>IKnight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:38:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3783#comment-3106</guid>
		<description>Further thought: a number of the medieval lit courses I&#039;ve seen (on the Arthurian tradition, on stories about Troy) are essentially studies of a chain of adaptions. Maybe it would be worth tracking one? Arthur and Troy have both lasted to the present day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further thought: a number of the medieval lit courses I&#8217;ve seen (on the Arthurian tradition, on stories about Troy) are essentially studies of a chain of adaptions. Maybe it would be worth tracking one? Arthur and Troy have both lasted to the present day.</p>
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		<title>By: IKnight</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/03/02/the-faces-of-tigers-and-dragons/comment-page-1/#comment-3105</link>
		<dc:creator>IKnight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3783#comment-3105</guid>
		<description>Obviously as a budding enthusiast I think everyone could add something to everything by looking into medieval literature. I&#039;m afraid I don&#039;t know if there&#039;re any books that helpfully synthesise material (&lt;em&gt;Adaption in Medieval Literature: A Reader&lt;/em&gt;). Adaption seems to be the lifeblood of a lot of medieval writing, because there was a lot of respect for tradition and &lt;em&gt;auctoritas&lt;/em&gt;/authority and some stigma attached to excessive originality. Medieval literature routinely claims to be based on a long-standing tradition, whether or not it really is, and certainly some of the authors I&#039;ve read (Malory, for example) will claim to be recapitulating a previous text most frequently when they&#039;re actually introducing the most original material. The only related theory that comes to my mind is Zumthor&#039;s &#039;mouvance&#039;, which is examined critically here: http://www.soton.ac.uk/~wpwt/mouvance/mouvance.htm (it does sound quite relevant).

Another interest of mine is the potentially independent existence of characters away from any particular single text. &lt;em&gt;Sir Gawain and the Green Knight&lt;/em&gt; seems to play with its audience&#039;s uncertainty about whether its Gawain is the Gawain of the English tradition (Arthur&#039;s primary knight, a master of public courtesy) or the Gawain of the French tradition (a master of charming-ladies&#039;-knickers-off courtesy who can be found, in the words of one editor, &#039;pursuing consummation through an unremitting onslaught of magic swords and flaming arrows&#039;). It turns out to be the English Gawain, but he later turns up at a castle only to find that its inhabitants seem to have heard of the wrong version and expect a masterclass in flirting.

. . . digressing again. Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously as a budding enthusiast I think everyone could add something to everything by looking into medieval literature. I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t know if there&#8217;re any books that helpfully synthesise material (<em>Adaption in Medieval Literature: A Reader</em>). Adaption seems to be the lifeblood of a lot of medieval writing, because there was a lot of respect for tradition and <em>auctoritas</em>/authority and some stigma attached to excessive originality. Medieval literature routinely claims to be based on a long-standing tradition, whether or not it really is, and certainly some of the authors I&#8217;ve read (Malory, for example) will claim to be recapitulating a previous text most frequently when they&#8217;re actually introducing the most original material. The only related theory that comes to my mind is Zumthor&#8217;s &#8216;mouvance&#8217;, which is examined critically here: <a href="http://www.soton.ac.uk/~wpwt/mouvance/mouvance.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.soton.ac.uk/~wpwt/mouvance/mouvance.htm</a> (it does sound quite relevant).</p>
<p>Another interest of mine is the potentially independent existence of characters away from any particular single text. <em>Sir Gawain and the Green Knight</em> seems to play with its audience&#8217;s uncertainty about whether its Gawain is the Gawain of the English tradition (Arthur&#8217;s primary knight, a master of public courtesy) or the Gawain of the French tradition (a master of charming-ladies&#8217;-knickers-off courtesy who can be found, in the words of one editor, &#8216;pursuing consummation through an unremitting onslaught of magic swords and flaming arrows&#8217;). It turns out to be the English Gawain, but he later turns up at a castle only to find that its inhabitants seem to have heard of the wrong version and expect a masterclass in flirting.</p>
<p>. . . digressing again. Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Pontifus</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/03/02/the-faces-of-tigers-and-dragons/comment-page-1/#comment-3103</link>
		<dc:creator>Pontifus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 09:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3783#comment-3103</guid>
		<description>Huh, I never thought of the parallel with medieval manuscripts and oral tradition, but now I&#039;m excited about it. I wonder how a frequenter of a mead hall would feel reading Beowulf after hearing Beowulf, assuming he could get his hands on a written text thereof and knew how to read. It being your thing and all, do you think I could add something to my investigation into adaptations by looking into medieval literature (which I more or less ignored in college)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh, I never thought of the parallel with medieval manuscripts and oral tradition, but now I&#8217;m excited about it. I wonder how a frequenter of a mead hall would feel reading Beowulf after hearing Beowulf, assuming he could get his hands on a written text thereof and knew how to read. It being your thing and all, do you think I could add something to my investigation into adaptations by looking into medieval literature (which I more or less ignored in college)?</p>
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		<title>By: Ubiquitial</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/03/02/the-faces-of-tigers-and-dragons/comment-page-1/#comment-3097</link>
		<dc:creator>Ubiquitial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 01:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3783#comment-3097</guid>
		<description>Well, Animes do do a better job, but I think thats because Expressions can be more easily expessed in subbed anime. I mean, the principle still applies to Dubbed stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Animes do do a better job, but I think thats because Expressions can be more easily expessed in subbed anime. I mean, the principle still applies to Dubbed stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: vendredi</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/03/02/the-faces-of-tigers-and-dragons/comment-page-1/#comment-3096</link>
		<dc:creator>vendredi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 01:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3783#comment-3096</guid>
		<description>I think the reasons you&#039;ve articulated are the same reasons why I find it very difficult to get into translated Japanese literature - either light novels or visual novels. There&#039;s something about the narrative style that just doesn&#039;t jive - I&#039;ve found that Japanese texts tend towards the overly wordy, with far too many adjectives - the sort of English writing one normally attributes to fan-fiction.

I have to agree with Ubiquital here: I think visual and narrative disparity probably account for some of the change of experience, but honestly I believe the difference can be better attributed to linguistic disparity.

ToraDora, after all, is written in Japanese for Japanese audiences foremost, and as a light novel no less, implying some sort of simplified or easy reading. I mean, the English equivalent would likely be something like young adult fiction. 

But even then the similarity is hard to draw - written Japanese is very different from written English, being pictographic rather than phonetic, so a &quot;complex&quot; sentence in Japanese might be comparatively very different in terms of reading difficulty to English. Furthermore, what might sound good in Japanese might not sound so great in English, and vice versa.

The ToraDora anime adaptation, on the other hand, suffers a little less from this &quot;lost in translation&quot; idea, I think. Sure, there are subtitles for the spoken dialogue, but we don&#039;t need subtitles to perceive body language and movement. On the other hand, English words for similar looking actions are very nuanced with their own slight meanings - &quot;sprint&quot; versus &quot;run&quot;, for example - which makes a completely written medium, such as a book, more mutable in translation.

The issue I&#039;m raising here of course only really applies to literal translation, but I believe that&#039;s what is usually done in regards to fan translation</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the reasons you&#8217;ve articulated are the same reasons why I find it very difficult to get into translated Japanese literature &#8211; either light novels or visual novels. There&#8217;s something about the narrative style that just doesn&#8217;t jive &#8211; I&#8217;ve found that Japanese texts tend towards the overly wordy, with far too many adjectives &#8211; the sort of English writing one normally attributes to fan-fiction.</p>
<p>I have to agree with Ubiquital here: I think visual and narrative disparity probably account for some of the change of experience, but honestly I believe the difference can be better attributed to linguistic disparity.</p>
<p>ToraDora, after all, is written in Japanese for Japanese audiences foremost, and as a light novel no less, implying some sort of simplified or easy reading. I mean, the English equivalent would likely be something like young adult fiction. </p>
<p>But even then the similarity is hard to draw &#8211; written Japanese is very different from written English, being pictographic rather than phonetic, so a &#8220;complex&#8221; sentence in Japanese might be comparatively very different in terms of reading difficulty to English. Furthermore, what might sound good in Japanese might not sound so great in English, and vice versa.</p>
<p>The ToraDora anime adaptation, on the other hand, suffers a little less from this &#8220;lost in translation&#8221; idea, I think. Sure, there are subtitles for the spoken dialogue, but we don&#8217;t need subtitles to perceive body language and movement. On the other hand, English words for similar looking actions are very nuanced with their own slight meanings &#8211; &#8220;sprint&#8221; versus &#8220;run&#8221;, for example &#8211; which makes a completely written medium, such as a book, more mutable in translation.</p>
<p>The issue I&#8217;m raising here of course only really applies to literal translation, but I believe that&#8217;s what is usually done in regards to fan translation</p>
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		<title>By: IKnight</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/03/02/the-faces-of-tigers-and-dragons/comment-page-1/#comment-3093</link>
		<dc:creator>IKnight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 23:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3783#comment-3093</guid>
		<description>As for the post itself, I don&#039;t have much to add. The discrepancy between the description and the illustration of Taiga&#039;s hair reminded me of the &lt;em&gt;Cotton Nero A.x&lt;/em&gt; manuscript, which is noted for having amateurish illustrations for &lt;em&gt;Sir Gawain and the Green Knight&lt;/em&gt; drawn by someone who knew the story but was a bit hazy on the details - as though he or she had heard it, but couldn&#039;t read and so couldn&#039;t check things. Sticking with hair, Gawain is a balding, bearded man in the illustrations but in the poem he seems to be young (the court as a whole is in its youthful stage - Arthur, who is Gawain&#039;s uncle, is &#039;sumquat childgered [somewhat childish]&#039; and the Green Knight insults the court as a whole for being composed of beardless boys).

. . . that&#039;s probably not a very helpful digression, but the post touched one of the things I&#039;m curious about: this curious double status of medieval stories, both very physically grounded in manuscript culture and strangely free floating (so that Chaucer describes the Trojan legend as a massive, heavy object born up on the shoulders of those who&#039;ve written about it, rather than something in a book, and Malory writes of his tales as places he can &#039;leve&#039; from and &#039;go&#039; to). I&#039;m sure some element of oral culture&#039;s mixed in there somewhere, too.

That was all digression too, wasn&#039;t it? Erm . . . I guess I can say that I see similar issues in Old, Highbrow and Native texts that you&#039;ve picked out in a text that&#039;s New, Lowbrow and Foreign?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the post itself, I don&#8217;t have much to add. The discrepancy between the description and the illustration of Taiga&#8217;s hair reminded me of the <em>Cotton Nero A.x</em> manuscript, which is noted for having amateurish illustrations for <em>Sir Gawain and the Green Knight</em> drawn by someone who knew the story but was a bit hazy on the details &#8211; as though he or she had heard it, but couldn&#8217;t read and so couldn&#8217;t check things. Sticking with hair, Gawain is a balding, bearded man in the illustrations but in the poem he seems to be young (the court as a whole is in its youthful stage &#8211; Arthur, who is Gawain&#8217;s uncle, is &#8217;sumquat childgered [somewhat childish]&#8216; and the Green Knight insults the court as a whole for being composed of beardless boys).</p>
<p>. . . that&#8217;s probably not a very helpful digression, but the post touched one of the things I&#8217;m curious about: this curious double status of medieval stories, both very physically grounded in manuscript culture and strangely free floating (so that Chaucer describes the Trojan legend as a massive, heavy object born up on the shoulders of those who&#8217;ve written about it, rather than something in a book, and Malory writes of his tales as places he can &#8216;leve&#8217; from and &#8216;go&#8217; to). I&#8217;m sure some element of oral culture&#8217;s mixed in there somewhere, too.</p>
<p>That was all digression too, wasn&#8217;t it? Erm . . . I guess I can say that I see similar issues in Old, Highbrow and Native texts that you&#8217;ve picked out in a text that&#8217;s New, Lowbrow and Foreign?</p>
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		<title>By: IKnight</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/03/02/the-faces-of-tigers-and-dragons/comment-page-1/#comment-3092</link>
		<dc:creator>IKnight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 22:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3783#comment-3092</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m of the opinion that translations &lt;em&gt;can&lt;/em&gt; &#039;work&#039;, even for things like densely-written poetry, but only if the translator is a better writer - in &lt;em&gt;both&lt;/em&gt; languages - than the original one.

Funnily enough, I don&#039;t read many translations either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m of the opinion that translations <em>can</em> &#8216;work&#8217;, even for things like densely-written poetry, but only if the translator is a better writer &#8211; in <em>both</em> languages &#8211; than the original one.</p>
<p>Funnily enough, I don&#8217;t read many translations either.</p>
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		<title>By: Pontifus</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/03/02/the-faces-of-tigers-and-dragons/comment-page-1/#comment-3075</link>
		<dc:creator>Pontifus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 02:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3783#comment-3075</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s why I like translations with a lot of translators&#039; notes attached. That&#039;s no way to emulate the experience of reading in the original language, to be sure, but it&#039;s better than nothing.

On the other hand, translations of Murakami&#039;s novels and stories tend to be quite good, so I think there is a way of capturing enough of the original flavor while making up for what&#039;s lost. Translation is almost certainly a factor here, but I&#039;m not willing to blame it entirely -- there are good translators and bad translators, and I imagine the multiple-translator nature of Baka-Tsuki might make things difficult.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s why I like translations with a lot of translators&#8217; notes attached. That&#8217;s no way to emulate the experience of reading in the original language, to be sure, but it&#8217;s better than nothing.</p>
<p>On the other hand, translations of Murakami&#8217;s novels and stories tend to be quite good, so I think there is a way of capturing enough of the original flavor while making up for what&#8217;s lost. Translation is almost certainly a factor here, but I&#8217;m not willing to blame it entirely &#8212; there are good translators and bad translators, and I imagine the multiple-translator nature of Baka-Tsuki might make things difficult.</p>
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		<title>By: Ubiquitial</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/03/02/the-faces-of-tigers-and-dragons/comment-page-1/#comment-3072</link>
		<dc:creator>Ubiquitial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3783#comment-3072</guid>
		<description>I do believe that the problem Lies not within the nature of the light novel, but the translation itself. English and Japanese are worlds apart in terms of linguistics and you cannot expect English to carry over the Majesty of the Japanese. Likewise, a traslation can never convey the power of Faulkner or Joyce. 

This is why I don&#039;t read many translations. Except for Dostoevsky . So much of the style, alliterations, and maybe a few proverbs or allusions are lost over this immense cultural gap. 

Translations don&#039;t work. Period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do believe that the problem Lies not within the nature of the light novel, but the translation itself. English and Japanese are worlds apart in terms of linguistics and you cannot expect English to carry over the Majesty of the Japanese. Likewise, a traslation can never convey the power of Faulkner or Joyce. </p>
<p>This is why I don&#8217;t read many translations. Except for Dostoevsky . So much of the style, alliterations, and maybe a few proverbs or allusions are lost over this immense cultural gap. </p>
<p>Translations don&#8217;t work. Period.</p>
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		<title>By: Pontifus</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/03/02/the-faces-of-tigers-and-dragons/comment-page-1/#comment-3007</link>
		<dc:creator>Pontifus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Mar 2009 05:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3783#comment-3007</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t pay much attention to that line, but you&#039;re right; it&#039;s a little strange. And it&#039;s not as if Ryuuji doesn&#039;t know that people will come to like him despite appearances, given Kitamura, so it&#039;s especially odd insofar as he&#039;s the point of view character...maybe he&#039;s particularly insecure or something.

I suppose I&#039;m not as interested in making conscious comparisons between adaptations as I am in charting the involuntary connections made during reading. Lately I&#039;ve moved away from examining minutiae and more toward considering reading itself and trying to figure out how literature functions as a body. Comparisons, it seems, tend to be a byproduct of all that, or maybe a necessary stop along the way -- and in any case I just have a tendency to make a lot of comparisons.

I&#039;m watching both Toradora and Clannad right now, and Toradora&#039;s melodrama is pretty tame in comparison, so it doesn&#039;t seem that bad to me (not that I don&#039;t like both shows).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t pay much attention to that line, but you&#8217;re right; it&#8217;s a little strange. And it&#8217;s not as if Ryuuji doesn&#8217;t know that people will come to like him despite appearances, given Kitamura, so it&#8217;s especially odd insofar as he&#8217;s the point of view character&#8230;maybe he&#8217;s particularly insecure or something.</p>
<p>I suppose I&#8217;m not as interested in making conscious comparisons between adaptations as I am in charting the involuntary connections made during reading. Lately I&#8217;ve moved away from examining minutiae and more toward considering reading itself and trying to figure out how literature functions as a body. Comparisons, it seems, tend to be a byproduct of all that, or maybe a necessary stop along the way &#8212; and in any case I just have a tendency to make a lot of comparisons.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m watching both Toradora and Clannad right now, and Toradora&#8217;s melodrama is pretty tame in comparison, so it doesn&#8217;t seem that bad to me (not that I don&#8217;t like both shows).</p>
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