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	<title>Comments on: Toradora:  the myth, the legend &#8212; the jousting?</title>
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	<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/</link>
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		<title>By: Ubiquitial</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/comment-page-1/#comment-1600</link>
		<dc:creator>Ubiquitial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3247#comment-1600</guid>
		<description>Great allegories. However, the entire thing reminds me more of Irish myth than Athurian Lore. Since, like Irish myth, Toradora goes nowhere, has no plot</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great allegories. However, the entire thing reminds me more of Irish myth than Athurian Lore. Since, like Irish myth, Toradora goes nowhere, has no plot</p>
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		<title>By: Omisyth</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/comment-page-1/#comment-1596</link>
		<dc:creator>Omisyth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3247#comment-1596</guid>
		<description>Toradora AKA The Pursuit of Happyness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toradora AKA The Pursuit of Happyness.</p>
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		<title>By: Cuchlann</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/comment-page-1/#comment-1576</link>
		<dc:creator>Cuchlann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 01:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3247#comment-1576</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I really need to watch more F/sN.  It&#039;s so slow I can only watch it every so often.  Like Death Note.  I really like both, but my constitution&#039;s not made in such a way that I can deal with it properly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I really need to watch more F/sN.  It&#8217;s so slow I can only watch it every so often.  Like Death Note.  I really like both, but my constitution&#8217;s not made in such a way that I can deal with it properly.</p>
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		<title>By: ghostlightning</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/comment-page-1/#comment-1575</link>
		<dc:creator>ghostlightning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 01:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3247#comment-1575</guid>
		<description>This is me too lazy to do a proper Fate/stay Night post - but am quite preoccupied by its Arthurian references.

If Toradora! is in the Fate/stay Night setting, then Taiga is Saber, agreeing somewhat to your casting her as the &#039;magic&#039; girl. However in F/sN Saber has another role, which I won&#039;t spoil here - and I don&#039;t really know how to shoehorn this.

I too, don&#039;t really want to see an everybody hooks up ending - but I want either of two things:

1) one of them hooks up, clearly and in no uncertain terms; or
2) they all part as bitter enemies

A lot of melancholic potential for each I think, and is something I can appreciate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is me too lazy to do a proper Fate/stay Night post &#8211; but am quite preoccupied by its Arthurian references.</p>
<p>If Toradora! is in the Fate/stay Night setting, then Taiga is Saber, agreeing somewhat to your casting her as the &#8216;magic&#8217; girl. However in F/sN Saber has another role, which I won&#8217;t spoil here &#8211; and I don&#8217;t really know how to shoehorn this.</p>
<p>I too, don&#8217;t really want to see an everybody hooks up ending &#8211; but I want either of two things:</p>
<p>1) one of them hooks up, clearly and in no uncertain terms; or<br />
2) they all part as bitter enemies</p>
<p>A lot of melancholic potential for each I think, and is something I can appreciate.</p>
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		<title>By: Cuchlann</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/comment-page-1/#comment-1573</link>
		<dc:creator>Cuchlann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3247#comment-1573</guid>
		<description>Well, a guy in weird home circumstances being a good guy all the time, as you say, is a pretty typical anime trope, so you&#039;re probably right in that case.  Except I&#039;m not sure he&#039;s nice all the time.  Of course, it could be the alterations his new relationships are making that gives him the ability to be something else -- I&#039;m thinking of the ep 13 race, which, to me, seemed very out of character for Ryuuji.  I think he could learn that a good person isn&#039;t necessarily &quot;good&quot; all the time -- he&#039;s certainly helped Ami out more by telling her off, even if he was polite, rather than just smiling and nodding, which he was inclined to do in the beginning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, a guy in weird home circumstances being a good guy all the time, as you say, is a pretty typical anime trope, so you&#8217;re probably right in that case.  Except I&#8217;m not sure he&#8217;s nice all the time.  Of course, it could be the alterations his new relationships are making that gives him the ability to be something else &#8212; I&#8217;m thinking of the ep 13 race, which, to me, seemed very out of character for Ryuuji.  I think he could learn that a good person isn&#8217;t necessarily &#8220;good&#8221; all the time &#8212; he&#8217;s certainly helped Ami out more by telling her off, even if he was polite, rather than just smiling and nodding, which he was inclined to do in the beginning.</p>
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		<title>By: Cuchlann</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/comment-page-1/#comment-1572</link>
		<dc:creator>Cuchlann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3247#comment-1572</guid>
		<description>Well, myth-criticism isn&#039;t for everyone, but I do think you&#039;re getting caught in some of the details.  Really, every story is a quest story, in some way -- my thought for the essay wasn&#039;t illustrating that Toradora is a quest, but what it is the characters are looking for, and looking at that in a new light.  However, what I ended up saying might not be *new* in any sense of the word.  

Now that you mention it, I actually do think there&#039;s a sense of difference between the indoors and outdoors.  I&#039;m not sure, but the biggest moments in the anime that I remember happen outdoors, like Kitamura&#039;s confession, Taiga&#039;s confession, Ami&#039;s realization she doesn&#039;t have to accept the stalker as a part of her life, the race in ep 13, and the batting cages.  You might be able to make a case for the &quot;locked in the shed&quot; scene being &quot;outdoors,&quot; as it&#039;s a shed, and not really a building -- it&#039;s away from the typical comforts of an indoors world.  Meanwhile, indoors the characters just brood over their problems, or pal around when they aren&#039;t feeling bad about them.  The outdoors seems to be the place where things happen in Toradora, which I hadn&#039;t realized before.  

My interest in Toradora doesn&#039;t come from the &quot;metaphorical quest.&quot;  That&#039;s just one way I have to try to explain the interest I already have in it.  *I* made the metaphor, rather than the show, and I&#039;m just hoping something useful arises from the comparison.  :)  It did, for me at least, so there you go.  

Also, I don&#039;t think Lancelot was physically ugly in Malory&#039;s version.  I could also very well be mixing Steinbeck&#039;s and White&#039;s, if White&#039;s version has the ugly Lancelot.  I read both Steinbeck&#039;s and White&#039;s versions really close together, many years ago, so they may have blurred.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, myth-criticism isn&#8217;t for everyone, but I do think you&#8217;re getting caught in some of the details.  Really, every story is a quest story, in some way &#8212; my thought for the essay wasn&#8217;t illustrating that Toradora is a quest, but what it is the characters are looking for, and looking at that in a new light.  However, what I ended up saying might not be *new* in any sense of the word.  </p>
<p>Now that you mention it, I actually do think there&#8217;s a sense of difference between the indoors and outdoors.  I&#8217;m not sure, but the biggest moments in the anime that I remember happen outdoors, like Kitamura&#8217;s confession, Taiga&#8217;s confession, Ami&#8217;s realization she doesn&#8217;t have to accept the stalker as a part of her life, the race in ep 13, and the batting cages.  You might be able to make a case for the &#8220;locked in the shed&#8221; scene being &#8220;outdoors,&#8221; as it&#8217;s a shed, and not really a building &#8212; it&#8217;s away from the typical comforts of an indoors world.  Meanwhile, indoors the characters just brood over their problems, or pal around when they aren&#8217;t feeling bad about them.  The outdoors seems to be the place where things happen in Toradora, which I hadn&#8217;t realized before.  </p>
<p>My interest in Toradora doesn&#8217;t come from the &#8220;metaphorical quest.&#8221;  That&#8217;s just one way I have to try to explain the interest I already have in it.  *I* made the metaphor, rather than the show, and I&#8217;m just hoping something useful arises from the comparison.  :)  It did, for me at least, so there you go.  </p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t think Lancelot was physically ugly in Malory&#8217;s version.  I could also very well be mixing Steinbeck&#8217;s and White&#8217;s, if White&#8217;s version has the ugly Lancelot.  I read both Steinbeck&#8217;s and White&#8217;s versions really close together, many years ago, so they may have blurred.</p>
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		<title>By: Marmoset</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/comment-page-1/#comment-1557</link>
		<dc:creator>Marmoset</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3247#comment-1557</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;ve simplified Ryuuji a bit too much there. While he certainly obeys a moral code, due partly to his natural instincts of right and wrong, I feel he&#039;s trying to prove something to himself. His most common acts of decency are fairly private affairs implying he&#039;s not trying to impress the general public but trying to prove to himself, or maybe the universe in general, that he&#039;s not his father and he&#039;s not what his outward appearance suggests he is. Yes he is a very good person but I don&#039;t think you can say he is naturally fundamentally good, he has trained himself to be so.

Though Lovely Complex is very neat and convenient I prefer it for it&#039;s characters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;ve simplified Ryuuji a bit too much there. While he certainly obeys a moral code, due partly to his natural instincts of right and wrong, I feel he&#8217;s trying to prove something to himself. His most common acts of decency are fairly private affairs implying he&#8217;s not trying to impress the general public but trying to prove to himself, or maybe the universe in general, that he&#8217;s not his father and he&#8217;s not what his outward appearance suggests he is. Yes he is a very good person but I don&#8217;t think you can say he is naturally fundamentally good, he has trained himself to be so.</p>
<p>Though Lovely Complex is very neat and convenient I prefer it for it&#8217;s characters.</p>
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		<title>By: IKnight</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/comment-page-1/#comment-1555</link>
		<dc:creator>IKnight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3247#comment-1555</guid>
		<description>There are a few other family resemblances, too. There&#039;s the presence and study of female desire (Taiga&#039;s), which is apparently (I&#039;m reading Cooper&#039;s &lt;em&gt;The English Romance in Time&lt;/em&gt; at the moment) an unusual feature of medieval romance (especially in the insular English and Anglo-Norman tradition), and the presence of magic which may or may not be working (the business of touching in the fourteenth episode). That said, I find this all a bit forced, and I&#039;m not convinced by the point you find (though I may not have understood it). But then I am not used to using or indeed reading myth criticism.

This is probably not how a myth critic is meant to think, but I find &lt;em&gt;Toradora&lt;/em&gt; too everyday in its scale, like a lot of modern romances (in the modern sense of &#039;romance&#039;), which is one reason why it doesn&#039;t grip me like a medieval romance (in the medieval sense of &#039;romance&#039;). I&#039;m not clever enough to be interested in an entirely metaphorical quest, and the story also lacks that division between Indoors and Outdoors which I find very stimulating.

@ schneider: I think (I haven&#039;t read either author) Steinbeck and White were both cribbing from Malory (I would assume Caxton&#039;s Malory, not the Winchester MS), and, if I recall correctly, Malory&#039;s Fisher King is split between several figures and is less important compared to the character in Chrétien and the writers who continued/adapted his work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a few other family resemblances, too. There&#8217;s the presence and study of female desire (Taiga&#8217;s), which is apparently (I&#8217;m reading Cooper&#8217;s <em>The English Romance in Time</em> at the moment) an unusual feature of medieval romance (especially in the insular English and Anglo-Norman tradition), and the presence of magic which may or may not be working (the business of touching in the fourteenth episode). That said, I find this all a bit forced, and I&#8217;m not convinced by the point you find (though I may not have understood it). But then I am not used to using or indeed reading myth criticism.</p>
<p>This is probably not how a myth critic is meant to think, but I find <em>Toradora</em> too everyday in its scale, like a lot of modern romances (in the modern sense of &#8216;romance&#8217;), which is one reason why it doesn&#8217;t grip me like a medieval romance (in the medieval sense of &#8216;romance&#8217;). I&#8217;m not clever enough to be interested in an entirely metaphorical quest, and the story also lacks that division between Indoors and Outdoors which I find very stimulating.</p>
<p>@ schneider: I think (I haven&#8217;t read either author) Steinbeck and White were both cribbing from Malory (I would assume Caxton&#8217;s Malory, not the Winchester MS), and, if I recall correctly, Malory&#8217;s Fisher King is split between several figures and is less important compared to the character in Chrétien and the writers who continued/adapted his work.</p>
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		<title>By: schneider</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/comment-page-1/#comment-1554</link>
		<dc:creator>schneider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3247#comment-1554</guid>
		<description>Well that post was certainly enlightening. I don&#039;t know Steinbeck&#039;s portrayal of Lancelot, but T.H. White also makes him a really sorry guy. White&#039;s Lancelot, aside from being ugly (he&#039;s described as looking like a Neanderthal), is self-loathing and masochistic, and he tries to hide these faults by being the best knight in Arthur&#039;s court. White&#039;s Arthurian retelling seemed to have glossed by the Fisher King motif though.

IMO Ryuuji is very different from ugly Lancelot. His looks are fearsome, but they are just that--inherited genes--and nothing else. He&#039;s incredibly good and kind to the core and this characteristic of him makes itself known in the first episode alone: he takes care of the house (which is superhuman for a teenage male in anime), takes care of his mom (I initially thought Ya-chan was a sister too from how Ryuuji treated her, like an annoying sibling you &lt;i&gt;can&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; just leave behind), and even unwarrantedly takes care of Taiga. I think he developed his OCD trait in order to become the good guy &lt;i&gt;all the time&lt;/i&gt; so that nobody would mistake him for a delinquent, but things just don&#039;t work that way. So in that case, he does good things for a reason, because he&#039;s fundamentally good.

The way I see it, Taiga wants happiness. It&#039;s not just Kitamura, but he&#039;s a part of it. She&#039;s actually doing great, even if she falls flat on her face at times. Minorin seeks love, and it&#039;s still an open question. But she&#039;s breaking down, that genki armor of hers, and somehow I feel profoundly moved as the crack becomes larger and larger. Why the facade in the first place? For Ami, I think she longs for understanding, and Ryuuji is the perfect man for the job. He&#039;s incorruptible, and Ami&#039;s sure that he&#039;ll deliver what she wants without strings attached. He doesn&#039;t judge her, he &lt;i&gt;tolerates&lt;/i&gt; her, and that&#039;s a big thing for someone who sees her true self as repulsive. Ryuuji also seems to believe that Ami&#039;s true self can be good, which is why he sticks around. I see a deep friendship amidst the playful, teasing banter.

I&#039;m with you on Toradora not needing a &quot;everyone hooks up&quot; end. The infatuation isn&#039;t as important as the journey, which by itself is a portrait of human self-improvement. These people want something, and they strive to get better with the help of others. It&#039;s beautiful growth. The moon is there, but I&#039;m all for the finger pointing to it instead~</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well that post was certainly enlightening. I don&#8217;t know Steinbeck&#8217;s portrayal of Lancelot, but T.H. White also makes him a really sorry guy. White&#8217;s Lancelot, aside from being ugly (he&#8217;s described as looking like a Neanderthal), is self-loathing and masochistic, and he tries to hide these faults by being the best knight in Arthur&#8217;s court. White&#8217;s Arthurian retelling seemed to have glossed by the Fisher King motif though.</p>
<p>IMO Ryuuji is very different from ugly Lancelot. His looks are fearsome, but they are just that&#8211;inherited genes&#8211;and nothing else. He&#8217;s incredibly good and kind to the core and this characteristic of him makes itself known in the first episode alone: he takes care of the house (which is superhuman for a teenage male in anime), takes care of his mom (I initially thought Ya-chan was a sister too from how Ryuuji treated her, like an annoying sibling you <i>can&#8217;t</i> just leave behind), and even unwarrantedly takes care of Taiga. I think he developed his OCD trait in order to become the good guy <i>all the time</i> so that nobody would mistake him for a delinquent, but things just don&#8217;t work that way. So in that case, he does good things for a reason, because he&#8217;s fundamentally good.</p>
<p>The way I see it, Taiga wants happiness. It&#8217;s not just Kitamura, but he&#8217;s a part of it. She&#8217;s actually doing great, even if she falls flat on her face at times. Minorin seeks love, and it&#8217;s still an open question. But she&#8217;s breaking down, that genki armor of hers, and somehow I feel profoundly moved as the crack becomes larger and larger. Why the facade in the first place? For Ami, I think she longs for understanding, and Ryuuji is the perfect man for the job. He&#8217;s incorruptible, and Ami&#8217;s sure that he&#8217;ll deliver what she wants without strings attached. He doesn&#8217;t judge her, he <i>tolerates</i> her, and that&#8217;s a big thing for someone who sees her true self as repulsive. Ryuuji also seems to believe that Ami&#8217;s true self can be good, which is why he sticks around. I see a deep friendship amidst the playful, teasing banter.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m with you on Toradora not needing a &#8220;everyone hooks up&#8221; end. The infatuation isn&#8217;t as important as the journey, which by itself is a portrait of human self-improvement. These people want something, and they strive to get better with the help of others. It&#8217;s beautiful growth. The moon is there, but I&#8217;m all for the finger pointing to it instead~</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan A</title>
		<link>http://superfani.com/2009/01/18/toradora-the-myth-the-legend-the-parrot/comment-page-1/#comment-1547</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfani.com/?p=3247#comment-1547</guid>
		<description>Haha, that was enjoyable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haha, that was enjoyable.</p>
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